Visiting Boaters slammed again

[Sail41]

It seems the Bahamas really don't want us to spend money in the Bahamas. Just another nail in the coffin.

http://www.thenassauguardian.com/bixex/302027229970400.php

[SamFamAustin]

If you ever need a part and think you can do it on your own, you can always ask us nice folks if they can take one on the plane for you. Naturally, we can't carry a 40 HP Westerbeke engine on our backs, but parts is parts and often can be put in the luggage. Just a thought. :)

[Charlotte Couple]

Yeah, but for emergency repairs, it's not practical to find someone who is traveling to Abaco when you need the part, get the part shipped to them in time, etc. This really is a policy that's going to have a big negative effect.

[SamFamAustin]

The way my dad tells his story, one of the hurricanes pushed a bunch of water into his trawler's exhaust system, enough to saltwater got into half the cylinders to freeze up the engine solid. This required a complete "long block" replacement and the insurance paid for it ... but only up to a point. My dad had to pay for all the government tariffs above "book value" for the replacement engine plus a reasonable installation fee.

I can see how making that even worse would be a nightmare - it was bad enough back in the "good" days!

[Harry]

Does that mean you pay the duty on any boat parts with you as you clear and then have to convince them the part is an "emergency" repair and plead for a refund?? Lots of luck!

Anything they (Bahamian Customs Agent) deem not to be "emergency" related is taxed?

So, if that is the case, they have, essentially, done away with the exemption for boat parts under the cruising permit.

Makes one wonder if the stamp/doc tax will be added on top of that.

A lot of factors to be reconsidered, these increased duties, the stamp/doc tax, $7.00/gal fuel. ever increasing crime throughout , power shortages/failures and resulting damage to equipment, substandard communication, rising food and other costs and so on.

A lot of local folks are going to get hurt, not just those in the boat repair and maintenance areas.

[cobra]

It is of grave concern to Locals what is happening right now with our Import Duty regime. Firstly, we were led to believe that there was to be a LOWERING of the cost of importing goods when Gov't announced that Stamp Tax would no longer be payable. However, what really happened was that the Stamp Tax percentage was added to the Duty Rate, and then 'rounded up'. So now most items cost on average 10% more than before these new regulations came into effect.

Other items which were completely Duty Free, such as computer related products attract a $10.00 per item charge. In addition, duty is now payable on reading material (books, Mags. etc.) I just don't get it.

I agree with what has been said before, once you pay the Duty on an item, getting a refund could take a lifetime.

Why Government has changed this longstanding policy (allowing spare parts in for boats while here on Cruising Permits) is not a good move. Perhaps a meeting between a group of Boaters and Local Chief Councilors in the area would be a good starting point, with a view to making the policy makers aware that current policy is detrimental to Cruising activity in the Abacos.

"I hope this does not qualify as political"

[PELLUCID]

Here's a helpful suggestion: http://www.marginalrevolution.com/

It's a blog that epsouses a marginal view of human decision-making. As it turns out, the authors are on the libertarian end of the political spectrum. But that is irrelevant. The important lesson is that all of the interesting action is at the margin... that is, the cusp where a few people make the decision to do or not to do a particular thing.

If Nicole Bethel... a decidely leftish luminary in the Bahamian political scene... can put it on her list of favs... so can you.

I cannot overemphasize the importance of the marginal view in considering economics, politics, and human behavior in general. You should give it a try.

[Spagna]

If the Customs official at West end Tries to tax the spare parts I will be carrying aboard this November for maintenance and repairs to my sailboat I will return to my boat and head west until I'm in American waters then head for the Florida Keys and/or Yucatan and/or Belize. I am willing to spend a lot of money in the Bahamas but no one is going to steal it from me. No one!:mad:

[islandfever]

If the Customs official at West end Tries to tax the spare parts I will be carrying aboard this November for maintenance and repairs to my sailboat I will return to my boat and head west until I'm in American waters then head for the Florida Keys and/or Yucatan and/or Belize. I am willing to spend a lot of money in the Bahamas but no one is going to steal it from me. No one!:mad:

You may have a little problem leaving. I remember when the government suddenly raised the cruising permit to $300 without notice a boater said that he would just leave and go back home. The customs/immigration officer told him that he was not allowed to leave until he paid the $300.

[BahamaAngie]

Sounds discouraging to boat tourism!!!

[trubahamian]

Our Government needs to be lowering fees in this time of a poor economy,not raising them. If that was the case the Bahamas would be a better value for US visitors and more would come and spend.Trying to tax our way out of a recession will not work and will hurt erryone.

[180degrees]

The newspaper article at the beginning of this thread said, "the government's move to apply a 10 or 45 percent for each and every part visiting boaters import while in this country". (Bold and italic are added for emphasis.)

It makes no mention of spare parts/equipment aboard the vessel when entering. Can you imagine the tariff a cruise ship would have to pay if this were so?

Yes, there is the extra step of proving that the cruising permit that was used to for a specific component is valid. But this is not totally unreasonable. Many of us know of situations where cruising permits were used to import parts for other vessels. The Bahamas is totally within their right to remedy this loophole, with the normal penalities for failing to do do.

By the way, having someone carry a part is no different that having the part imported. It should still be declared as a dutiable item upon entry.

[sail pending]

As usual the verbage is vague and the idea lacks logic. Reminds me of a recent change in fishing regulations.

[islandfever]

As usual the verbage is vague and the idea lacks logic. Reminds me of a recent change in fishing regulations.

Reminds me too of the Aesop Fable "The Goose That Laid The Golden Egg."

[SamFamAustin]

By the way, having someone carry a part is no different that having the part imported. It should still be declared as a dutiable item upon entry.

Oh, all you need is a copy of some of Wonkee's x-rays for his knee reconstruction. He's got enough funny-looking metal in there to justify about any part on a gasoline or diesel engine! :D

"Doctors orders."
-sammie

[Wonkee]

Minneapolis St. Paul airport was the only place I had any real trouble this summer. I wear Flip-Flops, thongs for those of us born before 1980 and only carry my passport, Drivers license and Insurance cards on me, and no coin money. I dont wear a belt, so there is nothing that can set that machine off. I was sent through twice, told to empty my pockets, which I had done. I kept asking if I could get the card out of my passport to show them, but they kept refusing. It took, pulling my shorts all the way up my thigh and telling them no I really have metal plates for them to let me get the card, at which point they told me to have a nice day. That in mind I dont know that I really want to press trying to get parts in. But hey what do you do.

[SamFamAustin]

Sometimes humor comes in small doses, amigo. Hope you are well. -sammie

[Local Knowledge]

180 degrees has it right...too much abuse of the system. Another case of the innocent suffering for the guilty.

[Watercolours]

Another case of the innocent suffering for the guilty.
I agree. Lots of people were usuing a Cruising Permit for a duty exemption for anything they could bring for anyone on a boat or off. Now they have ruined it for all. Possibly the same crowd that steals toilet paper from marina restrooms or leave early in the morning from a mooring to keep from paying a $20.00 charge.

[dive guana]

I have a couple of boats and i pay duty on every item I bring in to the country to repair it. What makes others think that they are entitled to duty free status ?????

Our tax system is based on import duties as the source of revenues to keep the infrastructure in the country running. If you are here with your boat you are directly or indirectly using the infrastructure and therefore you should contribute to its upkeep.

We do value the tremendous contributions that visiting boaters make but you have to pay to play.

I am going to put my helmet on now because i know people are going to start throwing rocks at me but so be it .

[HALF-A-HAMIAN]

No rocks from me. I think you've summed it up pretty well. After all, we pay city tax, state tax, excise tax and federal tax on every item we buy here, so the only difference is the percentage and origination. Items from other Commonwealth countries have lower tariffs, like Irish or New Zealand butter for example, which I guess you can use in a pinch to grease a prop shaft. ;-)

[PELLUCID]

Nobody bit on my "marginal" comment. The difference really is the percentage. At 35% duty + 7% stamp tax = 42% marginal rate, that is pretty steep. AT THE MARGIN, it tempts a number of people to cut corners.

Tax Policy 101 is that low marginal rates and wide bases are the most efficient way to go. There are a number of ways for the Bahamas to accomplish this. The current system of import duties does not qualify.

As you might guess, I have been taking potshots on this issue for quite a while now :)

[Spagna]

I already pay to support your infrastructure because everything is 35-50% higher in price because of those fees. To pay taxes on items not for sale is an additional method for another incompetent government to double tax. I have to put up with it in the USA because I live here but I do not have to go to other countries that engage in extortion when I have a choice of where to visit. Yes it is the result of a few ruining it for all but it is those government officials of a particular school of thought that can't figure out how to punish the offenders instead of everyone.

I pay no city tax because I choose to live in a city that has none. I only pay the state sales tax if I buy something. The tax is only applied if I take an action. I have the choice. If I possess an item not for sale it should not be taxed. We have that nonsense in some states here too but it too can be avoided by choice.

My point is I can't vote in the Bahamian elections but I can vote with my dollars. If the Bahamian government doesn't want my dollars I'm fine with that. Perhaps they expect to get all their money from the people who have bought lots in the many communities like Bakers Bay, lets see, will that be enough to balance the budget or just line their pockets?

[Spagna]

This also puts into question what the tax status of the school supplies I told patw I would be happy to bring in and donate to the school. The government may just have shut off that pipe too.

[HALF-A-HAMIAN]

I already pay to support your infrastructure because everything is 35-50% higher in price because of those fees. To pay taxes on items not for sale is an additional method for another incompetent government to double tax. I have to put up with it in the USA because I live here but I do not have to go to other countries that engage in extortion when I have a choice of where to visit. Yes it is the result of a few ruining it for all but it is those government officials of a particular school of thought that can't figure out how to punish the offenders instead of everyone.

I pay no city tax because I choose to live in a city that has none. I only pay the state sales tax if I buy something. The tax is only applied if I take an action. I have the choice. If I possess an item not for sale it should not be taxed. We have that nonsense in some states here too but it too can be avoided by choice.

My point is I can't vote in the Bahamian elections but I can vote with my dollars. If the Bahamian government doesn't want my dollars I'm fine with that. Perhaps they expect to get all their money from the people who have bought lots in the many communities like Bakers Bay, lets see, will that be enough to balance the budget or just line their pockets?

I wholeheartedly agree you should vote those dollars elsewhere, as you're coming off as an "Ugly American". The rest of us kinda like Abaco and the Bahamas and try to encourage people to enjoy it's natural beauty and beautiful people, not bash them. Love it or leave it, as the Hag would sing.

[snorkler]

I pay too. Two boats duty paid, and real estate taxes, and yea all the shi* cost more.

But there is no place in the U.S. or the world for all I know, anything like ABaco. So as long as I can aford it I'll keep paying the fee's and keep coming to Abaco.

It's their country and they have an income tax free thing. so the money has to come from somewhere. Dont just say it affects us americans cause all the Bahamians are paying lots of duty too.

It is just different, but not wrong, or unfair.

Can you imagine the U.S. with import duties on goods.

Jeezzzu, people buying american goods, no trade deficit, The US has been clueless to the consequences of allowing all this imported stuff.


I love the duty system, it's a national sales tax and you pay to play.

Hell we should charge duty on imported oil. Then we might be drilling here.

So if you want to ***** go somewhere else,,

I love the Bahamas!!

[Sal]

I wholeheartedly agree you should vote those dollars elsewhere, as you're coming off as an "Ugly American". The rest of us kinda like Abaco and the Bahamas and try to encourage people to enjoy it's natural beauty and beautiful people, not bash them. Love it or leave it, as the Hag would sing.

Funny, they never say our dollars are ugly

[islandfever]

Our Government needs to be lowering fees in this time of a poor economy,not raising them. If that was the case the Bahamas would be a better value for US visitors and more would come and spend.Trying to tax our way out of a recession will not work and will hurt erryone.

Purely from and economic point of view this is simply to the point.

[SamFamAustin]

Can you imagine the U.S. with import duties on goods.

Oh but sir, one must may a US Customs and Border Protection duty if the value of good taken into the US exceed $800 - it varies by country and type of good, but those fees are assessed. See this nice brochure:

http://www.cbp.gov/linkhandler/cgov/newsroom/publications/travel/knowbeforeyougo.ctt/knowbeforeyougo.pdf

The $800 threshold is called a duty waiver; for US territories such as the US Virgin Islands it is $1600. Many tourists and travelers run afoul of these rules when returning to the US, so the pamphlet here really helps. Over the waiver limit you pay money!

It is very low as Pellucid notes, only a flat rate of about 3 percent. The main target for the US CBP are customs paid on commercial goods, which is full of all the nice Washington politics (but note the prohibition on importing Cuban cigars and some other weirdness for travelers).

So let's see how we stack up here. The money I make in the US and in my tax bracket is something like 35%, paid to the IRS. The money leftover can be used such as for traveling. If I am paying a duty tax for certain "dutiable" items, I'm at 38%. Bingo, not as bad, but certainly way up there!
-sammie

[SusieAndAl]

Nobody bit on my "marginal" comment. The difference really is the percentage. At 35% duty + 7% stamp tax = 42% marginal rate, that is pretty steep. AT THE MARGIN, it tempts a number of people to cut corners.

Tax Policy 101 is that low marginal rates and wide bases are the most efficient way to go. There are a number of ways for the Bahamas to accomplish this. The current system of import duties does not qualify.

As you might guess, I have been taking potshots on this issue for quite a while now :)

Hey Pellucid,

We agree with this post and most of your others on this subject. One thing to consider is that the imminent signing of the EPA with the EU, followed by new trade talks with Canada and the US and the relentless overarching pressure of the WTO will inevitably result in serious changes to the current tax system: it is simply untenable.

What worries us is that there is a real danger of this beautiful country pricing itself out of a high percentage of the total tourist market. It's already a very high cost destination, and the competition is intensifying on all fronts.

[Spagna]

I wholeheartedly agree you should vote those dollars elsewhere, as you're coming off as an "Ugly American". The rest of us kinda like Abaco and the Bahamas and try to encourage people to enjoy it's natural beauty and beautiful people, not bash them. Love it or leave it, as the Hag would sing.

My concern is not the Bahamian people at all. Where did I bash them? Where? It is a bad move by the Bahamian government and pointing it out does not constitute 'bashing'. To say otherwise is to attempt to stifle open debate by demeaning the person voicing the opinion. It is a classic debating technique and one the 14 Logical Fallacies of debate. It would be more constructive to answer the issue not bash me.

My concern is with a government that is run out of one law office no matter which party gets elected imposing a duty on my personal property that is part of the ship's inventory of spare parts for safety and security reasons as if I were a smuggler trying to sell it and avoid paying taxes on the sale. THAT IS UGLY!

trubahamian's comment is the economically correct action for the government to take not this vague, offensive and potentially dangerous penalty on tourism. How does the latest fishing restrictions and this tariff on cruisers personal property "encourage people to enjoy it's natural beauty and beautiful people" ? It is already more expensive to spend time in the Bahamas why would making it more expensive encourage tourism?

[Spagna]

"But there is no place in the U.S. or the world for all I know, anything like ABaco. So as long as I can aford it I'll keep paying the fee's and keep coming to Abaco."

The Bay Islands of Honduras, Belize, Cost Rica to name a few that are about the same nonstop ride on a 737 from anywhere in the USA. The greatest advantage the Bahamas has in tourism is its proximity to the east coast of the USA which has the greatest concentration of population. That's why Disney World is located where it is. Turn off the USA tourists and the Bahamas can turn off the lights because the party's over.

Oh yeah, about that infrastructure I'm supposed be paying for to use does that include the power outages, telephone outages, unreliable wi-fi and cellphone and for us cruisers the government navigational aids that are listed in the 2008 cruisers guide to the Bahamas as 'unreliable due to lack of maintenance'? Where is all this money going?

[HALF-A-HAMIAN]

Yep, sounds like ya really love the place.

[Spagna]

Try answering the questions for a change in stead of the personal attacks.

[Stone Malone]

Spagna, there is no easy answer for why Govenments do what they do, regardless of nationality. Everytime my gov puts a new regulation into place someone gets upset. Sometimes it's me and not you guys (visitors, regardless of what type of boat you own or whether you come by air). But without trying to get too personal it seems as though the live aboard sailors get their noses out of joint the most easily and for the least amount of money.

So take a deep breath. If you really don't like it here don't come. and if you do, well, you've made your point, you're upset with the new policy.

[islandfever]

Am I reading this correctly that the government is thinking about taxing spare parts and other ship's inventory on recreational boats entering the Bahamas? Spare water pump, spare starter, spare inverter, extra laptop etc. It amounts to thousands real fast.

[Charlotte Couple]

I don't read it that way. I thought it is just when you have to have parts flown in to make a repair while you're in the Bahamas. We fly in, and don't have a boat there (yet), so I wasn't aware of the practices that have been taking place, using the cruising permit to get duty-free parts for someone else's boat. That's wrong, and should be addressed, but I still don't think the cruisers should have to pay the new taxes, and then apply for a refund that may never come.

[trubahamian]

I agree. Lots of people were usuing a Cruising Permit for a duty exemption for anything they could bring for anyone on a boat or off. Now they have ruined it for all. Possibly the same crowd that steals toilet paper from marina restrooms or leave early in the morning from a mooring to keep from paying a $20.00 charge.


I have witnessed all of it,including tissue tiefs! lol.

But in all honesty man....If the Customs Inspector dem did their jobs they can easily tell what is "ship's stores and consumables" and wat is goods being smuggled in. In turn they would make the country a lot of money collecting duties on TV's,electronic equipment,etc, that we have all seen coming down the marina docks.

I think the laws we had concerning wat ship stores are and wat smuggling is need to be enforced.We don't need any new ones to drive away the dwindling number of visitors we have now. Watsayu man?

[Spagna]

Spagna, there is no easy answer for why Govenments do what they do, regardless of nationality. Everytime my gov puts a new regulation into place someone gets upset. Sometimes it's me and not you guys (visitors, regardless of what type of boat you own or whether you come by air). But without trying to get too personal it seems as though the live aboard sailors get their noses out of joint the most easily and for the least amount of money.

So take a deep breath. If you really don't like it here don't come. and if you do, well, you've made your point, you're upset with the new policy.

stone, you're right I am upset. But I'm upset because I do care. If I didn't care I'd just go somewhere else. I've said it before, I love the Bahamas and it is upsetting when a loved one acts in a way you disapprove of. As far as cruisers getting upset more easily you may have a point but consider that they are in that lifestyle because they have an elevated sense of freedom to begin with.

Deep breath? Heck, I've been doing Lamaze exercises since I read that link!;)

[SamFamAustin]

I dunno, I go with what the charter boys and girls say, since they go through a lots of engines and parts - and pay to keep their boats in top working condition. I think most pay the money and "be no more about it."

While I realize that the cruiser industry is huge in the Bahamas, in most every port of the world you're subject to the whims of the mechanics, shippers, and customs inspectors. Perhaps the rule suffers more from bad PR than anything else - you do know the word "boat" means "bust out another thousand." And that's NOT what boaters want to hear. Least of all, the cruisers do NOT want to be called potential "smugglers."

More than anything else, this issue is all about regressive taxes. Pellucid nailed it - that many Americans find the tax and duty revenue collection system in the Bahamas to be very, very strange. And in this case, "regressive" means that it hurts the rich the most, which are by a fair share dominated by folks from the US.

The Bahamian revenue stream, aside from a few crawfish, is dominated by tourism, international banking, and international shipping (flag of registry). The tourism sector has always been seen as a huge cash cow, while low rates on banking and shipping make it a very convenient place to do business. I suppose what is missing is a sense of balance between the three major tranches of revenue. There's a ton of Big Money being recycled through the Bahamas, and it's not just the tourist sector.

So far, promoting tourism has used a centralized, "band-aid" approach, with some tightening here, some relaxation of rules there, and some ungodly resorts that never escaped the whiff of subtle corruption. One can never fix a problem by just fiddling with parts here and there, but must see the whole picture ... OK I'll get off my soap box now. -sammie

[Spagna]

I just got off the phone with Vernon Clement Jones, the Guardian Business Editor who wrote the article. It is his 'opinion' that the new regulation is intended to be applied to parts ordered once the boater is already in the Bahamas since this is the M.O. of those trying to evade the tax. He did agree that contacting Customs would be a good idea to get clarification. I will and I'll post the results.

A lot of people in and out of government think that people with boats are 'the rich'. We sail a 20 year old 25' boat that we've kept in good condition since we bought her new for about the same price as a Nissan Sentra. I calculated what it would cost the Admiral and me if we flew over and stayed in hotels/rentals and ate all meals in restaurants and used inter-island transport for 6 months. I used actual receipts from 2 years ago so the numbers are going to be low. It came to $70,000.00! We can't afford that. Our costs including marina stays occasionally and some meals out at recommended places and a fair amount of rum at Nippers, Pete's Pub etc are budgeted at $7,000.00 for the 6 months. We can afford that. Each additional cost as a percentage of what we can afford is significant. It means the difference between doing it or not.

[Spagna]

I think the laws we had concerning wat ship stores are and wat smuggling is need to be enforced.We don't need any new ones to drive away the dwindling number of visitors we have now. Watsayu man?

Very very true, tru, and here in the USA as well, as regards most laws in general!:rolleyes:

[Spagna]

OK, I just got off the phone with Jillian at Frederick's Agency customs agents in Marsh Harbour (1-242-367-2333). I explained the situation to her and she called Bahamas Customs to get clarification. She said that according to Bahamas Customs, ships stores including parts that arrive on the boat are NOT subject to the duty.:D:D

[Jerry S]

Thanks for all the leg-work that you have done on this subject.
Great info;)

[Spagna]

Thanks for all the leg-work that you have done on this subject.
Great info;)

thanks. I had to do it ...I was beginning to hyperventilate!! :p

[ddb]

Several years ago when PattyB and I were spending quite a bit of time on the mainland she had her beloved 1984 Honda Prelude shipped to Treasure Cay. We found the duty to be much higher then figured,it was like more then the value of the car,so she went over with some further documents and proof of value and got it straightened out.It was a bit of a hassle for her and
it still wasn't cheap ,but well worth it for the joy we had of exploring many out of the way places and being able to take off on a moments notice.



Would we rather pay a nice hefty sales tax on everything that we purchase ;groceries,gifts,rentals,services and that all important and wonderful Kalik and Yer'Ho rum that some of us love so much?

In our experience I'd pay the duty any day.

But,then again we don't own a boat ( I'd probably drive it into a dock....,oh,wait I already did that once!)

Anyway , that's my 2 cents.

[Alan Brown]

Question - Do the new regulations apply to Bahamian-flagged vessels?

[Watercolours]

Question do the new regulations apply to Bahamian-flagged vessels?
Bahamian registered vessels have always had to pay duty for parts imported. They will still have to now as well as boats on a cruising permit now. The duty exemption for was for
Forien registered vessels on cruising permits for parts needed to keep these vessels operational.
www.cruiseabaco.com (http://www.cruiseabaco.com)

[Stone Malone]

another way to look at this is: I like our tax system, it's easy. I don't have to file taxes before April 15; it's just that everything I buy is "expensive". And the less money I spend, the less tax I pay, regardless of my income or how much property I own. etc

Of course there is much much more to it than that, but going there might hurt my head, so YoHoHo

[Spagna]

There is a difference between bringing an item into a country permanently or which would normally could have been bought in that country, in which case a duty should be paid and imposing a duty on something only visiting. To do otherwise would mean every item in every bag brought in by a tourist would be taxed. The same applies to items brought in as ships stores.

In the clarification Jillian got from the Customs department this concept is borne out and ships stores, that is items intended for use by the crew or for the safe operation and maintenance of the vessel, arriving on the boat are not considered dutiable. I agree with this and I am fine with it because it conforms to centuries of British Admiralty Law, the basis for all modern maritime law.

I still don't know about the status of anything we will be bringing to donate to the school. If we do have to pay a duty on those items I can justify that because they do not conform to the clarification above. They are intended to stay in the country and are not related to the operation of the vessel and therefore have an impact on the economy, however small, which is the purpose of import duties. I'll pay whatever duty is due on the items patw says the school needs and we can bring.

[Stone Malone]

you or someone else wants to donate something to a school and the government makes it "harder" on you by taxing it. That's a deterent.

Let me tell you two stories that will demonstrate how "stupid" my government is - and the civil servants who are on the front line are.

The home owners assoc on Scotland Cay wanted to import an incinerator to replace their "burning" dump. But they didn't want to pay duty on the incinerator. But the customs dept stood fast. In the end they said, "ok, so we bring it in duty free and do our small part to clean up the local air or we can continue to burn and pollute the local atmosphere" either way the government will not be getting any duty money out of this. You know what the Gov said of course - keep burning.

This one takes the cake

A friend of mine was bringing some computer software in to the country via MHH (international) airport and the lady at customs picked up one of the discs and said "what's this?" he said it's computer software, it's duty free. She looked at it and tapped it soundly on the table and said (I hope you're sitting down) "it's hard - it's hardware, see - tap tap - it's hard!! this is hard-ware!!" " Um, no Darlin' it's software" well by now the people behind him were snickering which was really getting her goat. He didn't pay duty.

The gov'munt dem - dey does need to come up to speed dread.

and P.S.

OK then there was the time when Tommy Turnquest was the Minister of Fisheries and he wanted to introduce long line fishing because it would create jobs and would be good for the Bahamian fishing industry as a whole. But the public freaked out, shot it down and then it turned out that he was "in" with some Florida based longliners and really didn't know what he was talking about - but now I'm really ranting - so I'll cut it off here - yeah - politics - bad juju

[yellowfin]

ok the reason cruising boats should not pay duty on parts is very simple THEY ARE CRUISING NOT STAYING IN THE BAHAMAS how hard is that to understand!!!! if you own a dive boat or a rental boat yes you should pay duty you are using it to make money!! how hard is that to understand tourists coming to the bahams cruising on a permit should not be paying duty on their boat that is leaving the country!! dont forget they are paying tax on EVERYTHING they buy in the islands!! Never in my life have i heard such a stupid defense on a tax!

[papanasty]

from what i have read and what i have been told through the thread and through my own inquires nothing has really changed other than the added 10% for receiveing repair parts for a US registered vessel on a cruiseing permit. There has always been the 7% stamp tax on any thing sent to the Bahamas for a US registered vessel since i can remember, I used to do a lot of marine repair over the years and always when possible used the owners cruiseing permit to receive items needed for repairs to that vessel. I think you all are confuseing the fact that the government is trying to deter vessels bringing in items that are not part of the ships supplies as we all no that this is and has been a common practice for many years and i for one am guilty of doing this in the past when i used to bring boats from the states. As long as the supplies and parts on the vessel are for the vessel there should not be a problem, do'nt insult the customs officers checking you in when you arrive in the Bahamas by trying to blatenly bringing in to the country items that you claim are for the vessel you are bringing in that are not for the vessel, All customs officers have been trained to know whats for the vessel and what would be suspicious and if you are caught it is your own ignorance to think you can fool them, They are only doing there job or at least most of them are and it is there way of trying to curb the practise of smuggling. Respectfully Papanasty :o :o

[papanasty]

What you think about this Stone i know we talk about this same thing and if i remember we both agree Papa:)

[trubahamian]

These smugglers are mainly of either one of two groups.......American homeowners that also own boats and bring in stuff for their properties and American boat owners that have Bahamian friends and can't say no to their requests to bring in things for them. Either way it is illegal.

American cruising boats rarely bring in anything that is not consumed or used in the daily operation of their vessel.

[Wonkee]

Funny, they never say our dollars are ugly
I'll say it. Many Americans, and I am not saying anyone here is guilty of this or not. You can read the posts that are made, threaten Bahamians with "I"ll spend my dollars elsewhere." all the time. Go and take those dollars with you. What makes any visitor think they are important enough to dictate how Bahamians live or chose to support their infrastructure.
The Bahamas was doing alright before you came, and they will continue long after you are gone. Abaco is Abaco because it is not a Tourist town. it is a Fishing, farming people that are willing to allow you to visit. If you leave they will keep farming, and fishing. They will go back to a life that was much simpler.
I am not saying that they want you to go, or it would not have an impact, but if you really feel the way you do then I am sure that they can live without you. I work with 3 yr olds, and the mentally ill, Withholding is a tactic they use to get their way because they have an inability to reason, or think with logic. So go ahead hold your breath and your Ugly money. you are making a 3yr old with a mental handicap feel more normal.
again this is to those who constantly dangle the I'll take my dollars threat, and not those of us who complain a little, but still go to Abaco because we love it and know the trouble is worth the gain.

[SamFamAustin]

Now all you with Bahamian roots are coming out of the woodwork! Well, it is your country and your islands.

Funny, our little town was incorporated the same year the Bahamas was made independent from England (1973). They talk about our little town like we're a bunch of swamp hicks with gaudy-colored houses and crazy telephone wires everywhere, saying we need "professional help" to increase tourism with mega-resorts "or the tourists will go elsewhere and your island will fail." Gosh, 35 years later we're still doing great.

Sound familiar? Sure, tourism is a big deal. I don't know how you folks feel, but us islanders on a little sandbar off Texas got tired of all this freaking advice, especially the ones with wannabe MBA degrees or the "head honchos" up in some central government building somewhere. And of course we're not rude about it, friendly to a fault, and there is no disrespect.

But we do things differently. We have a town bum, for example, and we help with some coin or a sandwich when we see him. One day some drunk tourist yahoo in a golf cart mowed him down in an accident and half the island raised money for his medical bills. The main-landers simply couldn't figure out why we did that.

Keep them guessing, I suppose...

[HALF-A-HAMIAN]

Barney, check on Otis, see if he needs anything. ;-)

[trubahamian]

I'll say it. Many Americans, and I am not saying anyone here is guilty of this or not. You can read the posts that are made, threaten Bahamians with "I"ll spend my dollars elsewhere." all the time. Go and take those dollars with you. What makes any visitor think they are important enough to dictate how Bahamians live or chose to support their infrastructure.
The Bahamas was doing alright before you came, and they will continue long after you are gone. Abaco is Abaco because it is not a Tourist town. it is a Fishing, farming people that are willing to allow you to visit. If you leave they will keep farming, and fishing. They will go back to a life that was much simpler.
I am not saying that they want you to go, or it would not have an impact, but if you really feel the way you do then I am sure that they can live without you. I work with 3 yr olds, and the mentally ill, Withholding is a tactic they use to get their way because they have an inability to reason, or think with logic. So go ahead hold your breath and your Ugly money. you are making a 3yr old with a mental handicap feel more normal.
again this is to those who constantly dangle the I'll take my dollars threat, and not those of us who complain a little, but still go to Abaco because we love it and know the trouble is worth the gain.

I agree with your sentiments Wonkee,pulling the "my way or else" card is rude and is just going to garner more disrespect.

Maybe down Cherokee way folks can go back to the "back in da day" ways,but in Hopetown that would be near impossible for most. Too many of us have chosen to live like the very one we cater to and along wit that lifestyle came all the enourmous bills associated wit the "keeping up with the Jonses" atitude.

Speaking for myself,I have always kept my life in perspective and lived modestly.....a 900sf, Bahamian style house will serve you well....wen times get tuff here you will be a slave to a 3000sf, house and all it's trappings.

[DrRalph]

I grew up and live in a community (Greater Daytona Beach) that is utterly dependent on tourism; it is our lifeblood, the great fraction of our economy. Sometimes I hate it, but there is no denying it.

Our businesses and government officials spend a lot of time and effort trying to figure out how to bring more tourists into the area, and how to get them to spend more money. We have a bed tax that goes toward promoting the area, and we're debating right now how to spend it: Internet, print ads, TV, articles, all of the above? It's even tougher in a bad economy, and with high gas prices discouraging people from driving to us.

If you're going to have a successful tourist economy, you have to listen to your potential clients. The companion thread to this one about what to stock in a rental cottage is a prime example. The airlines are going through the same exercise, and as we have seen, some of them can't even survive.

In 250 years the Bahamas has never had a successful "legal" economy other than tourism, and it's pretty much the same for us in coastal Florida. You have to be aware of what your customers want if you're going to have success. For the most part, I don't think US (and other) tourists are typically mean-spirited, but they will tell you what they want, and they may indeed go elsewhere (or not at all) if their desires aren't met. We have to live with that where I live, as do most Bahamians. I think what TB has said is the bottom line: most Bahamians can't go back to a subsistence economy, and that means promoting an economy that will bring money into the area.

I hear your displeasure with the behavior and attitude of some tourists, and believe me, we have the same emotions at times in Florida. But, for better or worse, "we" and the tourists have an essential symbiotic relationship: they want to play, and they'll pay for it. We don't have a lot of alternatives.

[SusieAndAl]

Well said as usual Dr Ralph.

We fell in love with Abaco and built a home here knowing full well the pro's as well as the con's.

Wonkee, the Dr's points are valid indeed. Without tourism and second homeowners, Abaco and her Cays would quickly and simply implode. Most restaurants would close. There wouldn't be two hardware stores and the one left standing would be a shadow of itself. The bonefishing guides would go broke. The shops in Marsh would close. The boat and car rental places would be gone. The plumbers, carpenters, masons, electricians and workers would have no work. Tax revenues would dry up. The majority of Abaconians' homes would be foreclosed because they couldn't make the payments. The list goes on and on.

Your assertion that Abaco would go back to farming and fishing simply isn't true. How would you pay for the fertilizer and electricity? The vast majority of Abaconians could never grow their own food, and wouldn't have any money to buy it. Most today don't know how to fish in quantities that could sustain them.

Now please consider the flipside, using us as an example. We live in Bahama Palm Shores (NOT a gated community). We have conservatively injected well over $1,000,000 in the economy to date and no, we we don't live in a McMansion. We have donated tens of thousands of dollars for good causes where the government fell short and our Bahamian friends needed help. Things like school books, supplies, computers, help with a new fire truck and many more are a few. We are volunteer firefighters, we help fix the potholes in our roads, we provide emergency medical care in our neighborhood, we have fixed more computers, wireless internet systems and phones than we can count.

We use virtually NO government services and we pay property taxes.

We respect and follow all laws, rules and regulations and then some.

We are but one of hundreds of foreigners here who love and respect this land. We too have seen some terrible conduct by tourists and locals alike. But here's the bottom line: without tourists and second homeowners, Abaco would collapse into chaos. The only economic activity left would be to go exactly where you don't want to go back to, and you know what that is.

Our fear is that the constant rise in costs for tourists will in fact make them go elsewhere with disastrous results.

Cheers -- SusieAndAl

[Wonkee]

Sorry it is unfair of me to say that it will not effect the Out Islanders. I speak from the point of view of the mainlanders, and the small communities down the shore. But the point still exist. Abaco is what it is because of the unique blend that it has, they use the traditional ways of life blended with the tourist trade to make their money. and no where else has the same feel, or attitude about it. And I know deep down just as all of them do that if it all left it make years, but they would make it and find a way. You can see it after every big storm. many of the establishments have been destroyed, but in a few months they build back bigger and better, knowing that God will take care of them. So sorry for speaking out of turn or on behalf of the out islanders, but I guarantee if the threat danglers all go away Abaco will be a better place

[islandfever]

... So sorry for speaking out of turn or on behalf of the out islanders, but I guarantee if the threat danglers all go away Abaco will be a better place


What is a "threat dangler?"

[HALF-A-HAMIAN]

The ones that keep harping they'll take their money elsewhere! I don't really think the powers-that-be are avid readers of this forum, so the threat needs to be directed there. It no doubt makes newbies wonder if it's worthwhile visiting this cut-throat money-grubbing country!

[Stone Malone]

money grubbers we are not - in my opion this thread has worn out it's welcome. you guys are nickel and dimeing each other.

If I could, I'd point out several idiotic American govermental policies, but that's against the rules. So, Sail41 and Sapelo Son and the rest of you, please please just drop it

[HALF-A-HAMIAN]

Meant as sarcasm, Stone, I'm sure you know and you're right, it should have been over page one.

[DrRalph]

1) Nothing says you cannot criticize the US government and its policies. We have specifically ask that US party politics, especially this close to an election, and the War in Iraq are indeed off-limits.

2) The subjects of development and specifically Baker's Bay are open.

3) The subject of how and where tourists and second homeowners spend their money is most definitely open.

4) Be careful posting when you've been drinking.

5) We are most capable of establishing our own policies; individual members do not get to decide when a thread is closed.

[vharrison]

4) Be careful posting when you've been drinking.

.
:D:D :D :D :D

[Stone Malone]

I quote -

a forum whereby you can offer your feelings and opinions regarding topics as they relate to Abaco.

Here are a few key issues that we ask you to avoid:

US political issues:

end quote

Sorry I got confused

and I got suspended from this board for a week once before for posting when I was (a) drinking and (b) angry anyway - so now I am much more careful.

don't ever let my post time confuse you

this is The Rant afterall - so, I'm sorry for even suggesting that you guys lay off - ok, so you have my blessing - have at it - argue over dimes

[Stone Malone]

now on to BB, threads and subjects being closed, Yes Dr Ralph, that is strictly my opinion, and you are 100% correct for clarifying. I guess I have sort of a potcake mentality. Let me explain. I have 2 dogs, 1 is mostly "pedigree" she has some breed to her. The other is 100% potcake, I have no idea what she is (and neither does she) I found her in the bush. When I come home the one comes out to greet me, running around, jumping up and down for really nothing other than emotion. The potcake waits patiently at the top of the stairs because she knows I am coming that way.

where am I going with this?

the BB nay sayers are somewhat like my somewhat pedigree dog, running around, making noise and burning energy when it really isn't necessary and won't acomplish anything (anymore)

whereas I am a pure bred bahamian potcake who waits paitently for what is inevitably coming my way anyhow, saving energy, Darwin would be proud

I've tried to explain myself without saying I simply accept whatever is thrown my way

now have at me if you want

[DrRalph]

You're OK, SM, we still love yah;)

[Sapelo Son]

money grubbers we are not - in my opion this thread has worn out it's welcome. you guys are nickel and dimeing each other.

If I could, I'd point out several idiotic American govermental policies, but that's against the rules. So, Sail41 and Sapelo Son and the rest of you, please please just drop it

Hey man, I have just had to read this whole thread from the start to figure out where that might have come from and I kain't find it. I have not been reading this thread much less posting on it.....and you have never heard me say anything but positive, supportive comments for the locals. What have you been smokin' Stoney?

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r265/colby_harris/rauch08.gif

With me, it's all cool.................I'll pay whatever, just don't lock me out!

[culp]

now on to BB, threads and subjects being closed, Yes Dr Ralph, that is strictly my opinion, and you are 100% correct for clarifying. I guess I have sort of a potcake mentality. Let me explain. I have 2 dogs, 1 is mostly "pedigree" she has some breed to her. The other is 100% potcake, I have no idea what she is (and neither does she) I found her in the bush. When I come home the one comes out to greet me, running around, jumping up and down for really nothing other than emotion. The potcake waits patiently at the top of the stairs because she knows I am coming that way.

where am I going with this?

the BB nay sayers are somewhat like my somewhat pedigree dog, running around, making noise and burning energy when it really isn't necessary and won't acomplish anything (anymore)

whereas I am a pure bred bahamian potcake who waits paitently for what is inevitably coming my way anyhow, saving energy, Darwin would be proud

I've tried to explain myself without saying I simply accept whatever is thrown my way

now have at me if you want

Interesting comparison. I would say though, from your posts, that you are actually more like your pedigree dog. Patience is a virtue, but passion, exuberance, and emotion are more fun.:)

[Stone Malone]

You're OK, SM, we still love yah;)

thanks buddy

[Stone Malone]

Interesting comparison. I would say though, from your posts, that you are actually more like your pedigree dog. Patience is a virtue, but passion, exuberance, and emotion are more fun.:)


No, sorry, I'm a potcake

[Stone Malone]

Interesting comparison. I would say though, from your posts, that you are actually more like your pedigree dog. Patience is a virtue, but passion, exuberance, and emotion are more fun.:)

thanks though

[Stone Malone]

Sapo - Ummm, I'm embarassed, I meant Spagna - my bad - I apologize

[Sapelo Son]

Whew,,,,,man I thought I was gonna have to get Gummy to pick me up in the teleporter and zip my big ole butt right on over.............


But, in the words of my hero, Forest Gump, "Thats all I'm gonna say bout that".......

hee hee, jus kiddin' stoney, have one on me!

[Stone Malone]

ahhh, the teleporter

[DrRalph]

I quote -

a forum whereby you can offer your feelings and opinions regarding topics as they relate to Abaco.

Here are a few key issues that we ask you to avoid:

US political issues:

end quote

Sorry I got confused

and I got suspended from this board for a week once before for posting when I was (a) drinking and (b) angry anyway - so now I am much more careful.

don't ever let my post time confuse you

this is The Rant afterall - so, I'm sorry for even suggesting that you guys lay off - ok, so you have my blessing - have at it - argue over dimes

I think, after reading the introduction to the Forum and The Rant, and looking through some of the recent posts, that we may have given the impression that we won't tolerate criticism of US government policy. You are welcome to do so, especially as it relates to The Bahamas. AbacoGirl made a post earlier about some aspects of US government policy which she does not like. While I don't agree with her, her comments are fair game, because they address policy issues.

Unlike our Bahamian friends, we Americans have almost reached the point where many of us cannot discuss partisan politics in a civil manner with someone who is on a different side of the political spectrum. What are are trying to avoid on this site is liberal vs. conservative, Democrat vs. Republican, and especially the War in Iraq. There are a great many places on the Web, in print, and especially on radio where you can completely immerse yourself in whatever political atmosphere you wish. But, none of the above is welcome here.

We have amended the Main Introduction as well as the intro to The Rant to provide this clarification. We apologize for not being more specific.

[islandfever]

I agree that the policy of the war in Iraq is off limits, but I assume the support of our brave men and women in uniform is open. Thanks!

[Stone Malone]

Dr Ralph, I didn't mean to split hairs but I had to say something.

Well there's the justice system just to name one (and the Bahamian justice sys)nbut I'll think about this and maybe post later.

Right now I think I need the teleporter to tell me wtf Hanna is going to do

Oh and Islandfever, the troops have my full support. This may be out of context, but I hate to see they get strung up for collateral damage. My Dad was a WWII vet and I've heard an insider's view - and that was when war was "civilized"

[PELLUCID]

For Dr. Ralph, and my many many friends who think that we suffer from an epidemic of partisan politics in the US today, I hardly know where to begin. The years between the Civil War and WWI featured a much higher voter turnout for presidential elections than today... and a ferocity of partisan nastiness that we can hardly imagine.

Let me suggest a sampling of political cartoons from Thomas Nast: http://www.csub.edu/~gsantos/cat15.html

He was the most famous cartoonist of his day, responsible for the portrayal of Democrats as donkeys and Republicans as elephants. In the context of the era, he was quite liberal. Definitely NY Times and not FOX News.

Hope this provides some perspective!

[Spagna]

Sapo - Ummm, I'm embarassed, I meant Spagna - my bad - I apologize

Que??? :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

[Agurs Wish]

I am really late to this discussion but can I just add one thing about mooring ball fees. Some of you sail in late and leave early depending on the tides and I know you are not trying to skip the fee, you just don't know where to leave it. Go to any establishment on the cay and they will make sure that the mooring owner gets it or go to a boat that looks like it is growing it's own personal reef under it and we'll get it to them.

[Marc Marino]

Why?....because someone has an opinion (albeit could be said with more tact) some people think they are attacking the Bahamian people. I am sure there are places with just as nice water as The Bahamamas....but the make up of nice people and beauty of the islands is what keeps me going back to Abaco....if you don't like tourists don't deal with them (not like you can't spot us a mile away)...if you don't want to pay the duty don't go there. If you try to bring something into or out of the Bahamas with the intent to deceive (ie get away with something) you need a good kick in the backside because now you ruined it for yourself and others.