A Rant Against Crime Rants

[Shelby]

Okay, I’ve steered clear of the latest crime threads until now, but when I see crime in Abaco described as “out of control”, I have to speak up against the hysteria. Crime in south-central Los Angeles is "out of control". Crime in Abaco may be increasing, but it’s still rare.

And though I don’t believe in suppressing crime news to protect the tourist industry, I do believe it’s important to present a fair and honest view of Abaco’s crime rate to potential visitors. When I see people talking about canceling their Abaco vacations or selling their vacation homes because of “out of control” crime in Abaco, I have to shake my head. I’d bet Abaco is considerably safer than the hometowns of 99% of the people who visit. And most visitors never have even the slightest brush with crime. Frankly, in the 30+ years I’ve been spending time in Abaco (GTC and Hope Town), the only criminal behaviour I’ve experienced is drunken tourists brawling in the street!

I’ve seen Forum members (and even Bahamians) blaming the increase of crime on illegal immigrants. Do some research and you’ll find most crime in the Bahamas is perpetrated by Bahamians. This was certainly the case in the recent murder in Marsh Harbour, as well as the murder in GTC in the 1990s referenced on another thread. And I just skimmed the crime-related stories on the Nassau Guardian’s website – not one of the accused is identified as an illegal immigrant, and, with one exception, all appear to be Bahamians.

Which raises another issue... How do we know tourists aren’t responsible for some percentage of crime? The only accused identified in the Nassau Guardian as a non-Bahamian was a cruise ship tourist from Key West. The fellow who admitted poisoning a much-loved tree in GTC is a second homeowner. And it wasn’t that long ago that a good percentage of the “working girls” in Nassau casinos were “nice girls” from Miami who flew in over the weekend to make a little extra spending money. Do I honestly believe tourists and/or second homeowners are responsible for crime in Abaco? Of course not! But I do think people should stop and think before making ignorant assumptions and accusations.

The reasons for crime in the Bahamas are really too complex and varied to discuss in any meaningful way here, but here are a few for your consideration…

- Economics. There’s a vast divide in the Bahamas between the “haves” and the “have-nots”. There is little, if any, social safety net. Not that this in any way excuses criminal behaviour, but for some Bahamians, it’s either steal or starve.

- A corrupt justice system. In the Bahamas, it’s sometimes difficult to tell the politicians from the crooks. (Though, given the news headlines lately, one could argue the same is true in the U.S.) I don’t believe this to be the case at the local level, but the truth is that town councils, well-intentioned as they may be, seem to have little real ability to enforce or change the law. Furthermore, in such a small country, many criminals distant relatives somewhere in government who are all too willing to make pesky charges go away. Or someone gets a payoff. Some Bahamian officials are more concerned with lining their own pockets than anything else!

- The U.S. drug trade. A good percentage of crime in the Bahamas (boat and engine thefts, for example) is related to the drug trade, particularly smuggling drugs into the U.S. For American visitors concerned about crime in the Bahamas, you may want to start by addressing your own nation’s drug issues.

- I mean no offense to my Forum friends, but, frankly, tourism itself leads to crime. Crooks go where the money and the goodies are. And the same transportation improvements that make it easier for you and me to get to beautiful places also help crooks get there, too. This is by no means specific to the Abaco or the Bahamas. It’s just reality in almost every tourism-based economy.

Yes, like most places on earth, crime does exist in Abaco, and I think it’s perfectly valid to discuss it. But let’s not lose sight of the fact that crime in Abaco is still quite uncommon, and you’re FAR safer in Abaco than most other tourist destinations!

Of course, that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t take steps to combat and control the crime that does exist. Use common sense – lock your doors when you leave your hotel room/vacation rental, don’t leave keys in your cart/boat, and don’t leave valuables or cash lying around. If you’re a regular visitor or second homeowner, form, join or support a community watch program. In the unlikely event you have a bad experience, report it to the Ministry of Tourism or the Out Island Promotion Board. And talk to your Bahamian friends… they’re the ones who can create real change by electing decent, honest officials and holding crooked ones accountable.

Just my two cents...

Happy New Year to all my Forum friends!

Amanda

[Island Daze]

Damn sounds good to me

[Sandhills]

You might want to subscribe to the Abaconian Newspaper and check out the Police Report section. For such a small population, crime is a concern.

[Shelby]

Sandhill, I am a longtime reader of, and subscriber to, the Abaconian.

I have seen a couple of people express concern about the crime report in the Abaconian. What you may or may not know is that the crime report is not new. It used to run in the paper some time ago. They rececently brought the feature back, which seems to have spooked a few people.

But, from what I can recall, the "new" crime report seems pretty much like the "old" crime report. So if you believe the appearance of this crime report heralds some "new and dangerous age" in Abaco, you can relax. :-)

[Sandhills]

Shelby,
As I said, I am concerned. It's not out of control as yet. I agree with you on the corrupt justice system. I think that more can be done on the Governments end to put it in check. Unlike Jamaica there are no bars on the windows of homes, schools, churches, police stations, etc. Before visiting Abaco a few years ago I mostly traveled to the USVI. I witnessed theft often on St. Thomas. Murder was common, mostly among the locals and rarely but sometimes tourist. On my first visit to Abaco I felt completely safe anywhere that I traveled on the island. I sold the property that I owned at St. thomas and purchased property at Treasure Cay. This was 5 years ago and I haven't been back since. I have been reading the Police Report section in the Abaconian for a few months, It appeared that there was a substantial increase in crime since my last visit. At that time there was a "no need to lock your door" mentality. Again, I felt perfectly safe.

[Tropical Concepts]

[LIST=1]
[B]Two weeks ago I found six old issues of the Abaconian scattered about the caretaker quarters at Hole in the Wall (I'll get motivated to post some pics soon). Anyway the old issues ranged from '95 to 97'. I took them home to see what was different from today's issues. Many familiar authors John Hedden advocating for planning and the environment, Steve Dodge excerpts, David Ralph editorials. The issues of the day appeared almost exactly to the issues today. There were stories on not one, two, but three murders on the island. Armed bank robberies, rapes and assorted mayhem. Hundreds of women rallying against violence

[culp]

Did anyone ever hear what happened to the guy (I think he was a tourist) who was caught stealing Troy and Maria's cart this past year? That seemed to be handled very well....he was on the ferry to MH the next morning, and the police were waiting for him on the dock when we arrived. I'm just curious to know what the puinshment would be for that crime.

[islandfever]

Little doubt alcohol was involved.

[patw]

I believe he was back here for New Years eve at Nippers this year.

Did anyone ever hear what happened to the guy (I think he was a tourist) who was caught stealing Troy and Maria's cart this past year? That seemed to be handled very well....he was on the ferry to MH the next morning, and the police were waiting for him on the dock when we arrived. I'm just curious to know what the puinshment would be for that crime.

[SamFamAustin]

That was an interesting post, Tropical Concepts: nothing really changes. There's just more houses and less cheap land I suppose, but not really more people because tourism was actually better several years ago. My dad notes less cruisers in the harbours this year, something slightly different. But otherwise, "tings seem de same."

I did a similar experiment, looking at a scrap book from when our little sandbar had three newspapers, circa the late 1980s. Yup, same ideas, the high crime, escalating land costs and arguments over developments, government inadequacy (if not veiled corruption), wonderful festivals, the results of the fishing and sailboat tournaments, and some notable births and deaths. And yup, even pictures of gawky baby birds that look cute but ridiculous! :rolleyes:

[Marc Marino]

I got an idea ...let's start a rumor that there is gold hidden in Bakers Bay and let the bad guys tear that place up...since a lot of people think that is why there is a lot of the illegals in Abaco

[PaBill]

Shelby wrote: "I’ve seen Forum members (and even Bahamians) blaming the increase of crime on illegal immigrants. Do some research and you’ll find most crime in the Bahamas is perpetrated by Bahamians."
You said in your post that they are "Illegal Aliens" well there you go, they are commiting an illegal act. and if Abaco has 1000 jobs available, and 500 are held by "Illegal Aliens" then there are 500 Bahamians who do not have those Jobs available, and are going to do whatever they can to eat. Even if it is break a law.
Lets call Apples, Apples Oranges, Oranges and Crime , Crime.

[Shelby]

Shelby wrote: "I’ve seen Forum members (and even Bahamians) blaming the increase of crime on illegal immigrants. Do some research and you’ll find most crime in the Bahamas is perpetrated by Bahamians."
You said in your post that they are "Illegal Aliens" well there you go, they are commiting an illegal act. and if Abaco has 1000 jobs available, and 500 are held by "Illegal Aliens" then there are 500 Bahamians who do not have those Jobs available, and are going to do whatever they can to eat. Even if it is break a law.
Lets call Apples, Apples Oranges, Oranges and Crime , Crime.

To be precise, I did NOT say crime is caused by illegal aliens... I said that's what others are saying. Frankly, unless you have ESP, or make a habit of going around asking for papers, I'm not sure how you'd know whether someone was legal or not!

If you are one of the folks who believe the majority of crime in the Bahamas is pepetrated by "illegal immigrants," please share the evidence that leads you to that conclusion. I'm sure lots of us would love to see it.

If your argument is that the majority of crime is perpetrated by Bahamians, but only because illegal immigrants have taken all their jobs, I respectfully disagree. The vast majority of Bahamians would turn up their noses at the jobs immigrants (legal or otherwise) are doing. (This is what led, originally, to the influx of immigrants decades ago. And it's why nobody, government included, will take a firm stand on the issue. Everybody complains about illegal immigration in the abstract, but no one wants to lose their own housekeeper, gardener or nanny.) Furthermore, I would argue that a very small percentage of crime is committed out of desperation and, just like everywhere else, most is committed out of greed. I'd be willing to bet that more proceeds of crime are spent on drugs, bling and luxury cars than on rent and groceries!

There's a saying that people are entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts. Call 'em apples, pears or pineapples, I stand by what I said.

[PaBill]

My Point was simply this, Illegal immigrants weather or not they steal, kill, rape, use drugs, sell drugs, or commit any other crime are Criminals. they are breaking a law just by being there, and it takes Bahamian resources to take care of them no matter what they are doing. A criminal is someone that breaks a law, and by being an Illegal, you break the law, and should be punished.

Hatians are not Criminals, people that break laws are Criminals. when I speed, I am a criminal, and I pay a fine, and even face having my licenses revoked. If I steal, I can go to jail, and pay fines. If I assult someone I can go to jail and pay fines. Why is it that when someone commits any other crime they should be held to the reprocussions, but illegally going into another country is OK for some reason?
A crime is a crime and "Illegal" says it all. If its illegal, then punish
I do not condem them for wanting to be in the Bahamas, But I do condone it being done Illegally.
If we can justify the minor crime then we will soon justify any crime.

[SusieAndAl]

Hi PaBill,

Are you sure that you condone illegal activities?

-- Al

[SamFamAustin]

Gee folks, I thought you were presumed to be innocent of a crime unless convicted by a jury of your peers. Until then, you might have been accused of allegedly criminal behavior but are not a criminal per se.

So let's be careful with our legal terms, since you can break the laws, deal dope, and commit thievery -- but until convicted you're not a criminal. There has to be a preponderance of evidence, and in criminal cases the peers must arrive at a finding that is "beyond all reasonable doubt."

Simply being an undocumented person on foreign soil, an alien, does not constitute criminal behavior. All British and American laws are the same on this. Once processed by the authorities and a magistrate or judge, one can be found as an "illegal alien" but still that is not a criminal offense. There is a huge difference there. That's why many illegal aliens are checked for prior offenses to ensure they are not criminals that need to be prosecuted.

An alien - illegal or not - has certain rights to petition for asylum under certain cases. One would be that returning to the home country could or would result in significant harm to the person. I'm sure you know that Haiti has been a hell-hole since the days of "Papa Doc" Duvalier and his reign of terror starting in the late 1950s.

Some countries such as the US allow non-criminal aliens to apply for citizenship. The Bahamas has its own unique situation where citizenship can only be conferred as a matter of birth (not sure about marriage). This puts any alien residents in an awkward position to say the least.

One of the best papers I found on the web was here:
http://lacc.fiu.edu/research_publications/working_papers/WPS_004.pdf

If you believe it, this paper says that the Bahamas traded with Haiti since the pre-Colonial days and many of the ancestors were in fact Haitian. Some estimates say that with a population of about 300,000, about 75,000 might be Haitian refugees that came over in three diaporas, the most recent starting in 1985.

Numbers are not really known about the amount of potentially illegal ones, however. We do know there are settlements of them in the big islands as well as "... other areas that show a strong Haitian presence are Eight Mile Rock, Lewis Yard, Treasure Cay, Pigeon Pea and the Mud are the most populated Haitian communities on Abaco." Some consider themselves "middle class" as well. Have a great weekend,
sam

[PaBill]

I made a huge typo back there, and when I realized it It was to late to edit....
I do not condem them for wanting to find a better life. I do condem them for doing it illegally. I had it typed diffrently and changed it and for got to change all of it.

If they are caught by immigration, they are sent back unless they have proper documentation. Seems like they are doining something wrong to the Police, and immigration.....
And The US was built on the backs of Immigrants. But when My Grandmother immigrated from Russia, she had to have proof of a job, a residence, and a sponsor to come in.
And if it is not illegal...then they need to change the terminology...mabey to Temporarily undocumented individuals, or Residentially confused, or undocumented resident/worker or another PC term.

[DrRalph]

[QUOTE=PaBill;41931]I made a huge typo back there, and when I realized it It was to late to edit.... [QUOTE]

Folks, you've got a half-hour to edit your posts after you submit them. If it gets later than that, just email or PM me, I'm happy to take care of it for you.

[Gayleupstairs]

No worries Doc - PaBill is obviously not checking his posts for spelling or grammar errors before he hits "Post." It pays to take a couple of extra minutes, run the spell checker and read your post BEFORE you accept it for final posting folks! Can potentially save lots of hurt feelings and/or misunderstandings.

[SamFamAustin]

Hey there's Gail Upstairs, cool! I must say I've posted and edited three times upon occasion, and still lay a blooper now and then.

Shelby - a nice person really named Amanda - did say that tourism can bring in some criminal activity, which seems correct in a way, too. It seems like when our little island off Texas reaches or goes over capacity, the fit hits the shan in that department. Never off-season.

But I want to show those peeps in the Abacos how BBQ cooking on a cedar plank is soooooo good. I need to go the the local lumber store again myself, I burned up all my planks. I wonder, do they have West Coast red cedar in the Abaco?

I'm sorry for the hijack, but if you've never had grouper, trigger, hog, or mutton fish cooked on a cedar plank, well, you just ain't lived right! It's downright criminal! :D
sammie

[AbacoPeach]

No worries Doc - PaBill is obviously not checking his posts for spelling or grammar errors before he hits "Post." It pays to take a couple of extra minutes, run the spell checker and read your post BEFORE you accept it for final posting folks! Can potentially save lots of hurt feelings and/or misunderstandings.

Very well said and so true!!

[PaBill]

"Please do not personally attack a fellow Forum member."
Thanks Doc for not being rude to me when telling me that I just need to inform you if I need to edit after the 30 min.
Spell check does not change words spelled correctly, and sometimes we change things at the last minuite, and miss a word. Like mabey we precived what we had said to be to harsh and didn t want to offend. So then we change words like condone, and condem..... But hey Im human and I made a mistake, and can guarntee many more .
I am sorry that I am not as Educated as some, smart as others, and as humble as the rest who never make mistakes.
So forgive my ignorance,and remember when you pick on me you are leaving someone else alone.

[DrRalph]

I ventured into the bowels of vBulletin and reset the time limit for editing a post to 12 hours, which hopefully will allow posters more time to consider and possibly edit what they have written.

There is some support for the argument that there should be no time limit. I've been hanging around message boards for a decade, and I've seen and heard more than a few stories about posts that were made by an author who was well into the hooch and later regretted the composition, but couldn't edit it. Sometimes we say things in a fit of anger or frustration, and it takes a while to cool off.

The argument against unlimited edit time is that someone makes a post, it elicits several comments, the author changes the post two days later, and now the thread makes no sense.

Let's try 12 hours and see how it goes. Again, once you're past the time limit you can always PM me and I'm happy to tweak your post.

[islandfever]

Twelve hours should be enough to sober up from any "rum rage" as well.

[theKurp]

The argument against unlimited edit time is that someone makes a post, it elicits several comments, the author changes the post two days later, and now the thread makes no sense.

While it is an affront to netiquette to quote entire posts when responding to only portions of it, not to mention an unnecessary burden on the storage capacity of the server, it somewhat neutralizes a poster who does what Dr Ralph mentions above.

Editing should be reserved for making a point clearer, grammar, and spelling. Any other reason is disingenuous.