Please Read....

[ReelFish]

Im sure most of you remember last July, after barefoot man, the viking that was run aground. Well that was a good friend of mines boat and his partner was the one who wrecked it. After the boat was wrecked their good friend Donnie, from green turtle (donnies boat rentals), came and stole everything off the boat. Rods, Reels, Tv's, Electronics, the works! After he stole everything he called my friends and told him that when he collected the insurance money he would sell it back to them for cheaper...Pretty much wanting him to scam and fraud the insurance company. Being the honest person my friend is he refused to participate and just wrote the boat as totaled. The then mad Donnie attemted to sink there 22' welcraft at the dock in the middle of the night in anger. Why i am writing this is for a few reasons, My friends had rented boats from donnie and paid him to watch their stuff in green turtle and trusted him. I have been going to the abacos for the past 10 years about 5-6 times a year. treasure to be exact. I just dont want to see people support this guy and his dishonesty. I love the abacos and the pruity of gods islands. For the sake of honest locals this guy gives you a bad name.

Thanks for your time

ReelFish

P.s.- One hell of a first post huh?

[DrRalph]

First, you are making some very serious accusations here, and we have no independent confirmation of any aspect of your story.

If this happened last July, why are you reporting it now?

Depending on how things go, we may delete this thread down the road.

[ReelFish]

Dr Ralph I understand your feelings, but when your best friends has got Donnie on speaker phone next to me trying to convince him. Because I forgot about this until last night when he told me he finally received the insurance money from that ordeal. I just felt the need to make people aware of what happened. Not to mention when i was there and rented a boat from donnie i went and filled it up full of gas right there in green turtle, Donnie spotted me after i put $300 in fuel and oil in and he then preceded to tell me he needed my boat and gave me one with a quarter of a tank. If you feel the need to delete then i have to respect that.

[abacofever]

Oh MY. Shocking.....NOT. I would have been shocked if nothing went missing. I saw the pics of the nice people helping out with the removel of items from the boat. Owners fault, should have stayed with a shotgun.
Very expensive Nippers.

[abacofever]

Now...there is another way to look at this. Anyone may Salvage an abandonded vessel. You say steal another says Salvage....sometimes a very fine line. Should have had someone there to watch over the boat at all times until recovered. Or just walk away and write a check for another one.

[dogfish]

I don't think the point is about stealing stuff off the boat (wrecking was a job back in the day). The point is that this guy (Donnie) took the gear with the intention of selling it back to the owner but when the owner wanted no part of it this guy (Donnie) tried to sink the owner's 22 foot boat. That goes way beyond what happened on the rocks after nippers.

But hey, you can rent from this guy and trust him all you want. After reading this I wouldn't.

-Doug

[Tropical Concepts]

First I reviewed ReelFish posting history and there no other postings that I could find. I also know that there are at least 2 sides to every story.
I have been subjected to unsubstantiated accusations a few times over the years and they are hard to defend. Even if there is no truth to them they plant negative seeds that are difficult to eradicate. Your tale would be much more plausible to board members if you had made previous contributions to it. While your accusations may be entirerly true I am requesting at least a shred of evidence before passing judgment, as many people have adjendas.:confused:

[ReelFish]

Tropical Concepts: I dont blame you for doing your homework. I said at the end of the original post that it was my first time posting so there was no need to look into my history. As two sides of everystory goes that is true. I am dissapointed in the way this post was received and i assume part resposibility. I posted this to help fellow future visitors. thats all. If you dont want to beleive me thats fine. We all are entitled to our opinion. I respect that. I have been viewing this forum for about a year and have enjoyed all the helpfulness. Im sorry if it bothers you that i just chose to join. I assume if this happened to you you would want to tell your story to help others. I look forward to my future post and getting to know you guys better!

Thanks

[ReelFish]

Tropical concepts: Also, I have no agenda, I live in Florida, House in Treasure, Dont own a rental boat company. So as im sure you can understand i have no agenda. Im the next closest thing to a full time resident and love the abacos. I give them my money so all i want it to hold people resposible for there actions. As for evidence, everyone saw the photos. The rest was over the phone between Florida and Green Turtle, insurance companys dont always want to get invlved in international fraud scams that dont account for excessive amounts of money. this was peanuts to a major corp. I joined this forum to make friends with fellow abaco lovers not to get slammed for helping future visitors.

[Marc Marino]

At least this board lets you say something...or get something off your chest...some boards unless you are saying some sparkling comment you get zipped off...this is what happened to you and you are letting others know...I appreciate that... This is why I get on a board like this...hell any magazine can show you pretty pictures but someone's opinion to me is important..you can ask who ...what ...where ...and why.:)

[Tropical Concepts]

I understand your point. But you have made horrific criminal accusations that may jepordise a person or family of their reputation or livelyhood. The accusations are comming from an anonymous (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7SKPB&ei=m4S5SdPNH4GStQPBzrw8&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=anonymous&spell=1) source. In the states and in the Bahamas we have the right to face our accusers. If you spend a lot of time in Abaco then you know how small the community is, I've even known some family fueds that rival the Hatfields and McCoys, so the source must be taken with a grain of salt.:cool:

[DrRalph]

I am dissapointed in the way this post was received and i assume part resposibility. I posted this to help fellow future visitors. thats all. If you dont want to beleive me thats fine. We all are entitled to our opinion.

You have to understand, there is a potential liability issue which we incur when we allow a post like this. We don't know you, we don't know the other players. We're allowing this, at least for the time being. You have behaved responsibly, and we appreciate that, but you also have to look at it from our point of view.

[SamFamAustin]

I understand your point. But you have made horrific criminal accusations that may jepordise a person or family of their reputation or livelyhood. The accusations are comming from an anonymous (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7SKPB&ei=m4S5SdPNH4GStQPBzrw8&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=anonymous&spell=1) source. In the states and in the Bahamas we have the right to face our accusers. If you spend a lot of time in Abaco then you know how small the community is, I've even known some family fueds that rival the Hatfields and McCoys, so the source must be taken with a grain of salt.:cool:

Thanks DrRalph and Tropical Concepts. "Bummer issues" like this can certainly be cussed and discussed - OK not cussed - but sooner or later some Yahooie is going to go ballistic and over the top and that ruins it for everybody. Not getting on you ReelFish so ease your helm and smile.

Y'all know what a Yahooie is, right?

Sammie
SQUAWK!

[trubahamian]

This is wat we refer to as "carrying news". The story sounds convincing and it may be true,but unless I have heard both sides of the story and maybe seen some documentation,I would consider it a quarrel and carrying news.

Remember this accusation could jeopardise how someone feeds his family. It een play.

[Gumelimi]

First of all, I know Donnie quite well. The good and the bad. We have an honest relationship and we are able to speak plainly with each other.

Theft vs salvage- this was a salvage, this is evidenced by Donnie contacting the owner and offering the salvage to him. A thief would have not said anything and sold the stuff elsewhere. These types of salvage are typical in the Bahamas and have been of good service saving peoples stuff. Im not a lawyer, not an expert on the laws on this but most Bahamians I know would go aboard an abandon wrecked boat to salvage...its quite common. Undoubtedly there are procedures of reporting and such, maybe Donnie didnt do that, still not a theft though.

Over the years Donnie has been on the scene of horrific boat accidents and sinkings. In my opinion, he has risked his life on at least one occasion.

Donnie struggles in certain areas of his life like most of us. Stealing isnt one of his problems. He is actually quite caring and generous. A very good friend who was quite helpful to my family and I during the time we lived on GTC.

I see no reason why this couldnt be worked out in one form or fashion.

[yellowfin]

this story is not the least bit surprising to anyone that has spent some time here! ;) why anyone would be shocked by it is mind bogling?

[ReelFish]

Gumelimi: i appreciate your straight forwardness and honesty. im glad to hear you have a good relationship with donnie. I do not judge a person on one bonehead move, we all have had those. Im not out to ruin his life. I just know that my friend and his family (which lets make clear it was there parnter driving and they were in the states) have written off the abacos and were deeply hurt. And also i understand salvage, this was salvage with a dishonest twist (in my opinion). Dr. Ralph I appreciate you letting us discuss this as friends. Im not here to make waves. Thank you guys. If we cant have a reasonable discussion and debate topics then where would we go.

[gazeboman]

I would be very interested to know where the line is drawn between Salvage and Theft. Is there a difference between international law, bahamian law & just plain bahamian ethic? At what point does a vessel become legally salvalgeable?

[papanasty]

If it is obviously a wreck or When there is no one present on the disabled vessel or there is no anchor laid out for the disabled vessel it is considered salvage< I Think > Papanasty:)

[Sapelo Son]

Ship salvage and the law

Salvage law has as a basis that a salvor should be rewarded for risking his life and property to rescue the property of another from peril. A vessel is considered in peril if it is in danger or could become in danger. Examples of a vessel in peril are when it is aground or in danger of going aground.
Prior to a salvage attempt the salvor receives permission from the owner or the master to assist the vessel. If the vessel is abandoned no permission is needed.
The amount of the award depends on, in part, the value of the salved vessel, the degree of risk involved and the degree of peril the vessel was in. Legal disputes do arise from the claiming of salvage rights. To reduce the amount of a claim after an accident, boat owners or skippers often remain on board and in command of the vessel; they do everything possible to minimise further loss and seek to minimize the degree of risk the vessel is in. If another vessel offers a tow and the master or owner negotiates an hourly rate before accepting then salvage does not apply.
Some maritime rescue organisations, such as Britain's Royal National Lifeboat Institution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_National_Lifeboat_Institution), insist the crews of their lifeboats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifeboat_(rescue)) renounce their right to claim compensation for salvage.
Jetsam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jetsam) are goods that were thrown off a ship, which was in danger, to save the ship. Flotsam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flotsam) are goods that floated off the ship while it was in danger or when it sank. Ligan or lagan are goods left in the sea on the wreck or tied to a buoy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buoy) so that they can be recovered later by the owners. Derelict (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandonment) is abandoned vessels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship) or cargo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo).
In the United Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom) under the Merchant Shipping Act 1995, jetsam, flotsam, lagan and all other cargo and wreckage remain the property of their original owners. Anyone, including recreational divers and beachcombers, removing those goods must inform the Receiver of Wreck (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Receiver_of_Wreck) to avoid the accusation of theft. As the leisure activity of wreck diving (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wreck_diving) is common, there are laws to protect historic wrecks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_of_Wrecks_Act_1973) of archaeological importance and the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_of_Military_Remains_Act_1986) protects ships and aircraft that are the last resting place of the remains of members of the armed forces.
The 1910 Brussels Convention for the Unification of Certain Rules with Respect to Assistance and Salvage at Sea reflects the traditional legal principles of marine salvage. The 1989 International Convention on Salvage incorporated the essential provisions of the 1910 Convention, and added some new provisions, as well. The 1989 Salvage Convention entered force on 14 July 1996, with nearly twenty parties. It replaces the 1910 Convention for states which are parties to both where the two conventions' provisions are incompatible.

[SamFamAustin]

Good research, Sapelo. My Maritime Law Case Book notes a distinction between a "find" and an "abandonment." An abandoned vessel is defined as "leaving or deserting such property by those who are in charge of it, without hope on their part of recovering is and without intention of returning to it." Davis, Charles, "Maritime Law Deskbook," Compass Publishing Company 2001, Chapter 19.

Basically, "Salvaging is an action for reward against maritime property which was the subject of marine peril and benefitted by services voluntary rendered to the claimant." In other words, the ship owner must benefit from the action because he or she retains the title to the ship, but must pay off any reasonable claim, which is usually a lien on an insurance company.

It's dense going but there are phrases like "Service [salvaging] cannot be forced on the owner." The ship or maritime property must be considered truly "abandoned" in order to lay claim to any property. Even in some cases, such as war ships that sunk with crews and are considered burial grounds, there are very strict laws and regulations regarding salvaging, including (urk!) diving operations.

I'm no sailor-lawyer but it is clear to me that salvaging is just a voluntary service and the owner must be consulted, if possible, before doing any work, which at that time a Salvage Contract would be prepared. There are some protections for "voluntary salvage" such as what the Coast Guard, marine patrol, towboat companies, and Good Samaritans do to help the vessel owner and crew. Might go back and read the salvage clause in your Boat USA policy ...

-sammie

[gazeboman]

Good information--Thanks to both of you:)
My point in asking the question was to determine if the case in question was salvage or theft. My conclusion and opinion is theft. Or am I missing something?

[dogfish]

I still think it was salvage and the issue is more of the attempt to force the owner to buy back the equipment and the accusation that the owner's refusal to buy back the equipment led to retaliation on the owner's 22 foot boat.

So fine, this guy Donnie thinks he is doing someone a favor buy removing the gear (questionable but lets go with it) so the owner can claim a total loss and get the insurance money and then this guy Donnie will sell the gear back for a discount. But when the owner does not want to buy the equipment back this guy Donnie tries to force his favor on the owner (no favors need to be forced). There is an accusation that this guy Donnie tampered with thw owner's 22 foot boat when he became frustrated that the owner did not want to buy back the gear. I am guessing that this guy Donnie really wanted that money and counted on it and that is what set him off as it is told. It sounds like a case of good intentions going to greed to bad intentions. Not uncommon in human history and I fully believe that these types of things can and do happen in the Abacos no matter what the other forum says....and yes we have sharks as well.

-Doug

[Gumelimi]

Reel Fish, Im sorry your friends are hurt and have decided not to return to the Abacos. I would like to think there is room for a resolution. The salvage thing is cloudy legally, In my opinion it was a salvage. I saw the boat and it was in a bad way. Everything on it was in peril. If it had slid off the rock it would have sunk.

The insurance company would have to know the boat was salvaged. Im sure this is something that has happened before and they have a way to deal with it in the settlement. The salvager gets paid either by a private party or an insurance company. I dont see any fraud here....The guy says to his insurance company "boat wrecked, got salvaged, I know who did it and where the stuff is, here is his name and number". It would be up to them how to proceed. Donnies alleged comment was irrelevant.

I cant connect the dots on why Donnie would be mad at the guy for not buying the stuff back...He could sell it anywhere.

My advice would be to explain the whole thing to the insurance company and let them decide how to proceed.

It seems alot of opinions are that this was a typical Bahamian salvage. Maybe if your friends could see it that way they could reconcile all this.

The threat to the dingy boat I cant even get my head around, I cant begin to follow the logic.

[SamFamAustin]

Some of us were kinda careful about rendering any legal opinions on what could be reviewed by a court of Bahamian law. It is very complicated law, based mostly on British Admiralty law, and there are thousands of court cases involving salvage ops.

In this instance, it sounds like the salvage aspect might not even be contested in court, and the problem was after the boat was stripped of its goodies. I'll say no more.

Growing up in the Northeast, I can attest to the local expertise of the islanders of Cape Cod, Martha's Vineyard, Block Island, and Long Island. These shoals, reefs, and spits are some of the worst in the world next to Cape Hatteras. The most recent big ship that went down was the Andrea Doria, and many islanders have some prizes they put on their barns like trophies. Such floating debris is called "flotsam," free to the collector (stuff thrown off a boat to lighten it so it won't sink it called "jetsam").

But perhaps the most interesting was a shipload of canned goods that broke up off Block Island, sending thousands and thousands of perfectly good cans onto the beach, more every storm. All the labels were washed off. So the old joke was "what are you having for for dinner tonight?" Truth was, you couldn't tell the baked beans from canned peas, although fruit juice was pretty easy to ID. Canned corned beef was their favorite, breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Still is today! :D
-sam

[Gumelimi]

Everything so far in this thread is here say. Here is some more........

I understand how people feel when a friend or family member is wronged, you get mad and want to make things right. We all do it.

In the future, for this board, I feel accusations that could impact the lives of wage earners should be made by those who were directly involved. As it stands now NO ONE who was an alleged victim in all this has said a word. All this is brought by third parties who were not there. I understand Reelfish has a relationship with an alleged wronged party in this but I feel the wronged party ought to be doing the talking.

This is what I believe to be true about this situation.

1. Big sportfish grounds on Whale Cay with injuries to the people on the boat. As a result a distress call was made. Donnie got the call to rescue the people.

2. Donnie rescues the people off the sportfish, gets them a place to stay on GTC and arranges medical attention. (Not a bad guy so far)

3. Donnie returns to the sportfish and salvages it. This includes boat docs, luggage, passports, wallets etc...which are returned to the people who were on the boat. This is when the alleged stolen stuff was taken off the boat.

4. A day or later, Donnie goes to meet with an owner of the boat and the Captain of the boat(they had just flown in). As he pulls up to the dock in White sound where they are staying they see the Wellcraft has partially sunk. Donnie does all he can to help them get the boat floated and the carbs cleaned to get it going again.

5. Sometime later Donnie asks for compensation for the rescue, the salvage, the lodging etc.......

6. Donnie has never been compensated for anything he provided for these people or the salvage job.

Its time to restore Donnies reputation and put this behind us. Those who were directly involved can hack it out all they want.

[dive guana]

I was the one that handled the original MAYDAY call in my capacity as BASRA Guana cay. I answered the Mayday call - verified that was no lifes in danger with the exception of a cut leg. Because I determined that it was closer to Green Turtle Cay I contacted a number of people by phone at 11 pm at night on a dark windy night to help with the rescue. After speaking to a number of people ( including the local ferry company and a couple of other people who rent boats ) I got in touch with Donnie who agreed to go out to help. that is the extent of my knowledge in the matter but the fact that he went out and endangered his boat and life to help must count for something

Troy
Dive Guana
BASRA GUANA CAY

[Sapelo Son]

I'm sure glad I contribute to BASRA,,,,,,,,,,,,, and Donnie..........

[Abacobrad]

Donnie answered a call at night, got people off their wrecked boat off Whale Cay, goes back the next day and gets their stuff. Donnie's a lot of things including a loyal servant to the Queen and the people. Kinda seeing it more as a big misunderstanding- the guy was putting it on the line to help.

Brad

[Charlotte Couple]

Not weighing in on the central issue here, though it's an interesting discussion.
Sammy, the Andrea Doria incident was over 40 years ago, wasn't it? And the cause of the wreck wasn't the shoals, it was a collision with the freighter Stockholm.

[ReelFish]

I think Donnie would be proud to know that so many people support him and have put there trust in him. I did not start this post to slander Donnie. Im sorry if it was worded wrong and its only my fault.

[Marc Marino]

I think Donnie would be proud to know that so many people support him and have put there trust in him. I did not start this post to slander Donnie. Im sorry if it was worded wrong and its only my fault.
It's not the wording ...it's the facts...some guy goes out of his way to help and this is what he gets...this is the reason no one wants to help anybody anymore...nothing is for free...if the guy deserves some restitution for his efforts...give it to him....now

[SamFamAustin]

Not weighing in on the central issue here, though it's an interesting discussion.
Sammy, the Andrea Doria incident was over 40 years ago, wasn't it? And the cause of the wreck wasn't the shoals, it was a collision with the freighter Stockholm.

By all means yes, in heavy fog off Cox's Ledge SE of Block Island, a collision that could have been prevented. Once the ship was struck and started to roll and sink, it was a "shoal" issue. But yes, that was when I was a kiddo.

Folks, every year hundred of people have incidents, collisions, allisions, sinkings, and the notorious "ramming the shore effect." Thank goodness nobody was very hurt in this case - some shore rammings are followed by instant death.

I think it's time to get beyond this single event and try to educate folks how to NOT get in that kind of situation. We all know there are freak squalls and storms and rogue waves ... people shouldn't be running smack into a cay at full throttle ... I did appreciate hearing from Dive Guana about their very fast response over VHF. Time to move on now, maybe?
sam

[AbacoPeach]

The Forum concurs. Thread closed.