Jumping on my soap box -

[Gayleupstairs]

[FONT=Arial]OK folks

[AbacoPeach]

Very well said, Gayle!!!

[it'lldo]

I agree Gayle.

[SamFamAustin]

I'll second that.

The Abaco Islanders were always known as survivors and you know, they never wanted to be "rescued" from their reef. When some big hurricanes came in several years ago, my dad figured out a way to power some stuff by connecting an extension cord from his trawler diesel to the house ... in between rounds of 140 MPH winds. Frances, Jean, I get confused now but they were in three of them. And you know my dad said the locals were incredible, literally coming out of the woodwork to check up on everybody and set up clinics and all that. Everyone helped. Giant fires were started to burn trash. There was no communication except sometimes you could get word out of Abaco to the AMB and post it ... a guy named Mont saved the day by re-hosting the AMB server in Orlando in case somebody had Sat radio or telephones to communicate with the Islands.

And the ants, they got flooded and were not happy, so they bit all the locals to no end, in addition to the downed poisonwood and all the other nasty stuff they had to walk through. There was no fish, no birds, or many leaves on the trees. One of my favorite survival stories was written by a young girl in the Abacos who lived on a chicken farm and the pine trees and chcken s**t was everywhere, described in intimate mucking-out detail.

I wish I had saved that story. DrRalph is there a way to search that out?
/sammie
p.s., I don't mean to dwell on the negative ... just offering some perspective.

[DrRalph]

Sure Sammie, go over to the AMB, pull up their Search function, enter "chicken s++t," and see what you get.:D

Seriously, that was indeed a great story, I remember it well, but not in enough detail to get you a key word or two, unless "chicken farm hurricane" will work. Definitely survivors. Maybe someone else will remember.

[SamFamAustin]

I was getting like 10,000 hits ... *LOL* ... I must not be doing it right ... but isn't that the same Mont who started up your programming over here? ;) /sammie

[Gayleupstairs]

Hijacking my own thread! Sammie - it is a 9/9/04 thread started by Wonkee and titled "A hurricane story". DrRalph's suggestion to search on "chicken farm hurricane" worked for me.

[SamFamAustin]

Aw man I just loaded it up to re-post here ... now I feel like the Pinder girl's chicken s**t. Sorry to hijack the thread, Gayle.

I suppose at the end of the day, what galls some of the locals and folks who are long-timers (and I do not include myself) is that they survived and figured out how to scratch and eek out a living while ... here some folks asking for a Starbucks Latte and a McChicken Sandwich so they can feast on to-go at their McMansion. I'm making that up but you get the picture.

We kind of fooled with the idea of growth and such in a previous thread called "What would you do?" One of the more insideous things is when the tourism industry brings in businesses (at the government's blessing) to accomodate the social expectations of the new generation of travelers. What I'm saying is that the funky old places with palm frond roofs will be replaced ... the houses will become more like Florida or Texas ranch houses, and so forth. If there is not a law to protect those old settlement cottages, and you know what I mean, they could become "bulldozer bait" because the land under them is worth more than it is with a shack on it.

So my point is that nobody responded to Willy that we needed to keep these American economic and cultural forces the heck out of the Abacos, or at least keep them in check ("What would you do?"). I'm bummed out just like you all, as it seems as if a force of nature, something that cannot be stopped. I guess if we ruined Key West, South Padre Island, Myrtle Beach, Block Island, and several nice reefs off Belize, we have more work to do to spread our insane gospel. Can't we just take over those nice little islands off Columbia that nobody cares about? /sammie

[DrRalph]

but isn't that the same Mont who started up your programming over here? ;) /sammie

Yes, indeed, he is a treasured teammate.

[BahamaBabe]

I have to admit I was disappointed when I heard that one can now buy paninis in Hopetown. I think I'll stick to grouper fingers and conch fritters. I can't get those where I live.

[Island Daze]

Gayle i can understand where you are coming from as i grew up on an island that has to rely on tourism to survive.I started going to Green Turtle back in the early eighties, makes me sound old, and loved the place from the minute i set foot there.I also realize that as hard as it is that when you live somewhere that is very dependent on tourism the two headed monster rises its head.By this i mean as a vacationer you want it to remain just like you want or remember and to keep it quiet, whereas a person who has to make a living off of tourism has to hope for a banner year to make a living, and in the process, i am sorry, put up with the tourist without becoming burned out.Without the tourist the local has to move away and without the local there is nowhere for the tourist to go.In the end regulated progress benefits all.I miss the sound of the generators at GTC but i like the more reliable power source.

[Spagna]

The same is happening here in the mountains of western North Carolina. It is happening everywhere. But it can be controlled. Here in Jackson County we elected new county commissioners and 4 of 5 were elected to get control of the 'second home development' monster. They have done it by enacting legislation that the prior commissioners would not because they were in the pocket of the developers and all could not see the trees for the dollars. A lot of damage has been done to the landscape and to the mountain culture but it will wind down now over the next 5 years or so as the greed moves to other places. If the Bahamas government were replaced with people like we just elected here in Jackson County the problem would stop. It is unlikely but possible.

I hate to see the world being 'homogenized'. We make it too easy for people to travel and relocate. I hate to see Moorings sail boats because 99% of the charterers are not sailors or boaters with experience and yes many are arrogant enough to expect all the shore side facilities to be the same as back in Chicago or where ever. They demand these facilities and the greedy want their dollars so because week long visitors want it Providence Is. gets the Carnival Cruise Lines monument to the tasteless and tawdry on Cable Beach. YUCK!! GPS and airports have brought the bad with the good and out of proportion. And what person who cares about the Bahamas goes into a bar there and demands to hear Reggae (or how ever you spell it) because they think that is the only island music?! It would be better if people had to 'earn' the right to travel as they did in the 40's and 50's when the demands travel itself sorted the chaff out before they left home.

When I develop some firm opinions on this I'll post them.

[SamFamAustin]

What's a Panini? Is that like Ken exposing himself by accident? :D

And Spagna, you speak de trut, mon. You rock. /sammie

[AbacoPeach]

A Panini is basically a grilled sandwich. They even have Panini grills. Looks like a waffle maker, but with ridged lines (grill marks) and not ridged squares. If you don't have a Panini grill, you can do it in a frying pan with a weight on it.

[PELLUCID]

Local Government. With real zoning - taxing - regulating authority. Gotta have it. Without it, the locals cannot control their future.

Sorry to sound like a broken record. I figure if I repeat something often enough, maybe the idea will catch on.

[sandy shaw]

I have to admit I was disappointed when I heard that one can now buy paninis in Hopetown. I think I'll stick to grouper fingers and conch fritters. I can't get those where I live.

Haven't toasted sandwiches always been available in the cays? I think coffee has, too...

[DrRalph]

I think a number of issues will conspire to keep Abaco relatively "primitive" in terms of its development and tourism potential. The coastal and low-lying areas are particularly vulnerable to tropical storms. The power, communications, sanitation, and water provision infrastructure is primitive at best, often absent. The airport may be the biggest deterrent, and promises of significant improvements come and go like the tides. The things that make Abaco seem "harsh" to the "softer" tourist may work to preserve its relatively undeveloped ambiance. There will inevitably be larger homes, bigger commercial enterprises, population growth. But compared to Florida, Texas, and other coastal areas, I think Abaco is faring better than most, and I think/hope we can look forward to a few more decades of relative peace and quiet.

[South Pause]

Dr. Ralph: I totally agree with your assessment! Well said.

[PattyB]

I think you are all missing the point regarding these new establishments. It is not for the tourists. It is for the locals who have experienced that sort of food while traveling abroad and want it at home.

I remember when Subway opened. My native friends were overjoyed. They never had easy access to cold cuts on Abaco before. How many of us are guilty of carrying cold cuts to Abaco in the past?

[SusieAndAl]

Dr. Ralph,

Every one of your arguments about factors inhibiting growth on Abaco are -- unfortunately -- just plain wrong. If any of them were true:

1) Bimini would not have occured
2) Harbour Island would not be destroyed
3) Exuma would not be torn apart
4) The longest runway in the Caribbean wouldn't be built on Mayaguana (think about that one for a second -- Mayaguana!)
5) The situation in Eluthera wouldn't be happening
6) The disgrace at Rum Cay would have been stopped
7) Ginn on Grand Bahama would not be happening
8) The sellout of 100 square MILES of Crown Land in eastern Grand Bahama would not be contemplated (at a price of $2800/acre)

In fact, Abaco has a much better developed infrastructure than any of the above, and where it's lacking, the major developer can and will take care of it. For example:

1) Communications. GSM is up (did you know that there are 16,000 ACTIVE cell numbers in use on Abaco (on a lighter note, one of the reasons for such a high penetration rate is that TDMA service is very spotty and will soon go away, but number portability ain't here yet, so business people still need both!)). The fiber backbone is up and running. If you're a major developer you will have direct linkup privileges so no issues with lousy service from BTC. Broadband wireless is here. Net: communications is not an issue for the big developer.

2) Water. No problem because private RO systems are economical and practical to support your development and are being built all over the other islands.

3) Power. No problem because the new generation power plants for your private use are being built all over the islands.

4) Waste removal. Not an issue because you will be given approval for your own private site.

5) Airport. An inconvenience but not a showstopper.

6) Susceptibility to hurricanes. Hmmm, guess we'll have to shut down the eastern seaboard and gulf coast of the US.

The real key is Pellucid's answer, but that won't happen for a long time because you're asking the beaureaucrats and politicians to give up everything they have -- all the power and all the money. And they live in Nassau. Only when Bahamians decide to change at the grass roots level will this occur.

We'd also like to suggest that a few comments in this thread are a bit too much foreign-centric. We don't see anything wrong with being able to grab a panini every once in a while, although we prefer boiled crabs and dough.

We as foreigners should always bear in mind the horrible suppression and exploitation of the majority long after slavery was abolished (think 1950s Mississippi and worse). This is a young country that achieved majority rule peacefully, holds free and fair elections and transfers power without the threat of a coup d'etat or civil war. The current structure and behavior of the government are a direct result and will take time to change.

There are tremendous challenges and problems here, but as foreigners, we can only lead by example and make recommendations. The land issue is critical because this is one of those irrevocable actions. But we fear it will take at least 2 more election cycles for significant change. We're trying to do our part through education and example.

P.S. There is an interim step to true local government that might be possible in the shorter term: A Freedom of Information law with teeth. We are encouraged that the Bahamian owner of the largest media conglomerate here is publically calling for such a law, and the younger educated Bahamians are taking this to heart.

[HALF-A-HAMIAN]

You're right-on SusieAndAl! You get a better perspective when you live there with, and not seperated from the populous, as a resident interacting daily, living with the issues, and not a visitor.

[Agurs Wish]

At least there's not a walmart and I dare you to find good mexican food down there. I have to agree with Patty B., grouper and conch are wonderful when you're on vacation but after living down there a while you hunger for something else and it's nice to find a restaurant that is serving something different than the one down the lane. That being said, I wish I would have found the Abacos a few years earlier when they were a little less "civilized". The unfortunate truth is "nothing remains the same" and if your looking for something a bit more rugged maybe you should try one of the other less inhabited islands before they change.

[patw]

Can I hear an AMEN brother????


You're right-on SusieAndAl! You get a better perspective when you live there with, and not seperated from the populous, as a resident interacting daily, living with the issues, and not a visitor.

[HALF-A-HAMIAN]

AMEN!, Sister!

[bluewhirld]

The Hope Town Coffee Shop is yet another example of the young, educated Bahamians returning home from college and establishing businesses. The owner/operators are a young gentleman, his wife and young children moving up from Nassau to open their own business. Bahamians! :) :) Last generation - unheard of. Must be really scary for them and I think we (locals and tourists) need to support and embrace this new wave of Bahamian Entepreneaurianism (sp?)

[local]

amen to that ...sisters and brothers- good luck to the coffee shop

[Spagna]

Hey, I'm Italian...what's wrong with a panini and an espresso? (also I think The Four Seasons is Italian owned and that could account for the restaurants) Some people make panini in their hotel rooms using an iron (not me man).

'Variety is the spice of life' but the problem begins when a culture is displaced by another. I believe it was the Caribe culture that was wiped out by the Arawaks (or was it the other way around, sorry I haven't thought about that in a while) who were in turn wiped out by the Spaniards who lost out to the English colonials who introduced slaves from Africa who outlasted the colonials. I used to be able to get fresh trout at several local cafes here in the mountins but in the local county seat population 13,000 the mom-and-pop restaurants have been replaced by 15 fast food chains and trout can only be had at one establishment which is only open during the summer 'tourist season.' I wouldn't want that to happen to the venerable conch burger but it could! "...you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone!"

Perhaps I am talking to a small group of disgrunttled locals but every time I'm in Nassau locals from taxi drivers to waiters to bartenders to fishing guides are not happy with all the changes and they first blame the government then cautiously criticize the clueless tourists. The same is true in George Town from the locals I have talked to there. I have been told by a couple of them that they consider me a 'guest' who pays his own way as opposed to a 'tourist' ...apparently it has to do with attitude. None of them are against making money but I get the distinct impression they would like to do it another way but don't know what that might be.

As a Native American chief told the US Congress when he was sworn in to testify, 'I can not tell you the truth, I can only tell you what I know'.

[Abacoparrott]

I can see the viewpoints like Ralph's and the opposite like Susie and Al......all true depending on your perspective.

Susie and Al's perspective is one derived from being a self sufficient person and the type that a lot of us on this forum, in fact, are. For these types, Abaco does, indeed have all of the infrastructure in place. Nothing to keep us away......

From Ralph's perspective, I think he was speaking about the TYPICAL American tourist who is used to being spoiled while on vacation. For these types, the airport IS a deterrent, as well as spotty phone service, power outages, still spotty wireless, etc. A couple of years ago, my wife and I "hosted" another couple who own the marina where we keep our lake boat in Charlotte. After 3 days on Guana they left. Seems the marina owner's wife was used to more amenities than offered on Guana.They spent the last 4 days at the Hyatt at Pier 66 in Lauderdale. There are plenty of these types in the states. That Abaco is a little difficult (RELATIVELY SPEAKING)to get to will, in fact, keep a lot of this type of tourist away. This will also apply to the successes of the new developments being attempted in the Bahamas. Some will fail, some will succeed, but at a much slower pace than the developers expect. I predict that the Ginn development will succeed primarily because of accessability. I also think that Ginns success will effectively "slow down" the success of the other developments being started in the Bahamas.....these are merely my opinions which have been influenced by a little marketing experience and by observations made concerning the American public's buying habits.

I am really enjoying this thread. Thanks again to Dr Ralph for the ingenious idea called "the Rant".........Ken

[Shelby]

This is a tough one, isn't it? On the one hand, as a Bahamian I think it's great that the young people are choosing to return (or stay) in Abaco and make their living there through entrepreneurial ventures. It's heartbreaking seeing all the old Loyalists homes boarded up and falling down because the elderly folks have passed away and the younger ones have moved on.

On the other hand, I want Abaco to remain as it was when I visited as a child. I hate seeing cars and trucks on the streets where only pedestrians, bicycles and, later, golf carts, used to be. I miss the days when the only sound you would hear were birds, church bells, chickens and the sounds of a boatmaker's tools. And as much as I do take advantage of the easy phone and Internet access, I do miss the days when going to Abaco meant really getting away from it all.

It's not an easy task balancing these things...

[papanasty]

ya know i look at these threads on this post and it amazes me that there are so many selfish people that do'nt appreciate the serenity that still exists here and has really not changed that much if you compare it to all the s*** thats going on in the rest of the world.You still can come here and feel safe when you go out at night,you still do'nt have to lock your doors when you go to bed at night because the crime rate is relatively low in Abaco. We all wish things could be the way they were but WAKE up,the world is not what it was 20 years ago and it wo'nt be what it is today 20 years from now,this is the reality of life,You wish it was like it was the way it was 20 years ago but what would all the hard working Bahamians be doing today if things stayed the WAY IT WAS they sure as hell can't all go fishing,by things growing and things changeing our chidren will have some thing to do when they complete there schooling,like the new coffee shop in Hopetown that seems to get more critisizim than it deserves,for Gods sake the kid is just trying to make a liveing for his future so that maybe he can have a decent way of life,I'm sure thats what ya all want in life,thats why you can afford to come here because you have all done well in life.THE GREAT USA has got you to were you are today so why critisize the Bahamian that just wants the same things out of life that you do,since i have come here 19 years ago i have seen a lot of change,but nothing compared to the way things have changed in the states.You should be thankfull that you can afford to come here and take a break from the caious that goes on over there.Abaco will never get like it is over there,the Bahamians will never let that happen but for gods sake they need to make a liveing .Now if you want us to revert back to the way it was start shovling in the money and we can stop the development we can just divy it up between everyone and no one will have to work and we can all go on vacation so you can have the hole place to yourself,I think most Bahamians would agree to that.So when can we expect our first installment :confused:

[Abacoparrott]

to be able to "Rant" Papa? Nice thing is, we don't have to pay for it so don't be expecting your "installment" any time soon. That being said, you made good points. Most folks on this forum expect change but appreciate the fact that it goes slowly in Abaco ( compared to the states). Personally, I don't give a **** about designer coffees and such but I DO wish your friend success. The free market will determine that. If he makes a living doing it then there was a market for it right?

I do find it humorous that some American tourists are interested if the Abacos provide golf, jet skis, designer coffees, Sterling beef, tennis, etc........all things that you can easily get in the states. Let's talk about the things that you CAN'T get in the states........beautiful reefs to snorkel, great fishing, no car lifestyle on the outer Cays, no locking doors on your rental house, Vernons Key Lime pie, respectful people, .........THESE are the things that the potential Abaco visitor should be interested in......if they're not then Abaco might disappoint them.........ken

[tim abbott]

I love the ability to say what you think here, and all comments I have read so far are intellegently wrtitten and have valid points.

Part of the problem is you can not control the personality of the visitors who come to the Abacos. They are like any other great place you find, more people find out about them and soon they are becoming " too crowded " and you are forced to interact with people you would just as soon avoid.

However it is still a great place that is like going through a time warp when you arrive. I think the unique character of the Abacos makes them so appealing.

I discovered the Abacos when my wife worked for the unmentionable Premier Cruise Lines, and I was blown away by the reefs, clear water, island atmosphere etc.

I lived in Treasure Cay most of 2005 supervising a construction job and living there is totaly different from visiting. The people are on the whole sincere, polite, and trustworthy, but there was a minority who it was clear through thier actions placed money ahead of a virtous character ( same as what you find anywhere ).

I found dealing with daily issues of availabity and prices of any number of items a real wake up compared to what I was used to. It was interesting to see the town change from season to season and how much the economy there is influenced by tourism.

I do take issue with one comment I read earlier. I think solid waste removal and management will be a big issue that must be tackled, just my opinion.

Thanks for allowing such spewing of thoughts to be possible. Hats off to curmudgeons!

Tim Abbott

[DrRalph]

A few years ago I learned the hard way that you just can't tell people how to spend their vacation bucks. We all want something different, and what person "A" wants can be totally different than "B" or "C".

Abaco is going to grow and evolve, whether you like it or not. Some of us will want to find our paradise primitive and undeveloped, and some will want creature comforts and familiar venues. Small and large Bahamian entrepreneurs will test the waters and offer us goods and services that we may or may not want, or even want to look at.

Many of you wish the north end of Guana wound somehow become a national preserve, others of you will buy lots, build homes, and bask in luxury. Some Bahamians we've chatted with wax nostalgic for the old days, no electricity, no central air, small primitive settlements. Those days are gone, like it or not. I think Abaco is a great blend of the past and present, and if we're lucky, it will retain its charm for a few more years, maybe a few decades.

[SusieAndAl]

Shortly after the birth of our second son, we made two decisions: 1) We would give our boys the finest education the world could offer, and 2) we would build a home on a beach and spend the rest of our lives far, far from the crowds.

Those decisions led us on a wonderful 20 plus year journey filled with great joy, a few really tough times and travel all over the world in search of "our" place. It's funny how priorities change when you switch from "vacation" mode to "retire" mode. We love going to really exotic, primitive places for visits and are also very comfortable in most major cities around the world, but when you contemplate retirement, you must think in terms of access to health care, political stability, currency restrictions, crime rate, access to airports, cost of living and so on along with beauty, serenity and tranquility. Anyway, all that culminated in finding Abaco. We bought an acre on the beach and built our little dream home.

About 2 years ago I woke up at my usual 5 AM in a hotel room in Tel Aviv, after a grueling trip to Hong Kong, Sydney, New York, Paris, London, Zurich and Brussels. My bodyguard got my breakfast and checked it and I started to prepare for the speech that I was giving that morning. I suddenly realized that this was no way to live anymore. The money was astonishing, but the toll was getting high indeed. I instantly decided that it was time to quit. On the long flight back to JFK I furiously went through all the numbers, and realized we could do it! The next morning I met my private banker and accountant, verified everything and went home. Our youngest son would graduate in 5 months, and I was wavering as to whether or not to wait. Something told me to go for it NOW, because excuses are so ***** easy to fall prey to. It was very cold that evening in Connecticut. I put some logs on the fireplace, made dinner and waited for Susie to come home from work. She instantly knew something was up, and over dinner I told her my plan and held my breath. Her eyes lit up, she gave me that special smile that only she has and said "Well, that sure took you long enough!" Two months later I was in Abaco for good, and Susie came a month after that.

We traded our BMW M3 for a used pickup truck, a nice 26 footer for a 14 foot runabout, lunch at Spago's and 21 for crabs n dough, beautiful fishing gear for handline, Broadway plays for brilliant sunsets, two hour train commutes for an occasional trip into town, insane travel schedules for strolls on a deserted beach, and most importantly, time to be together and truly enjoy this wonderful place and to share it with our friends and family.

In short, no regrets. Now, Abaco has serious issues and it grieves us to see some of the horrible mistakes and blatant corruption that does happen here. For example, the destruction of acres of virgin pinewoods for a garbage transfer station simply cannot be defended. But overall, this is a wonderful place on earth and the quality of life and the vast, vast majority of people are folks that you are proud to call your friends. Development is inevitable, and we really hope Dr Ralph is right. Realistically, we think we have about 10-20 years before East Palm Beach becomes the new moniker. So, enjoy this magnificent place while you can!

Cheers -- Susie and Al

[AbacoBoy]

I totally agree with Papanasty!

Anyone every heard of "To each his own"?

Judging others is the rampant disease that I wish people would leave where they came from.

AB

[Henz]

Susie anmd al what the hell did you do?????
also, I understand this topic very well by trade. Lets face it, Abaco is pre-dominatly a tourist place. The owners of the establishments will try new things like pininis etc to get people to frequent their establishments its just a plain fact. The nice thing about Abaco is that yes, the people will cater to the tourists, however, they still are dedicated to where they come from and who they are. Thats a nice trait to have.

[SamFamAustin]

Maybe it helps to know what kind of tourist you're talking about. Unless you were born the the Bahamas or have a passport with a Bahamian registry, you're a tourist! A short-timer, weekender, Spring Breaker, visitor, cruiser, sailor, crew of a sailboat, big-shot from the media, second home owner, offshored retiree, fishing tournament pro, seasonal guest, friends or kin of the seasonal guest, lost hippie, or conch wanna-be. Or just, heh, a tourist, rather like what you see at Disneyland.

There are lots of different kinds, each with their own attitudes. My suspicion is that the locals can peg them pretty good, although they probably don't care as long as they are nice, respectful, and tip good. Drunks making whoppie in the bushes and falling off the boat is not good. At the end of the day, you might have good, okay, and bad tourists. And they can tell, just by looking at your face. See the difference in how we think?

sammie

[beachbum]

Ok, I dont post often but thought I would jump in on this one..

I just returned from 15 amazing days on Guana..
I am somewhat of a newbie.. been to Guana for 4 years in a row now.
Here is my observation on progress..
yes there is much change in the short 4 yrs since I found Abaco.
Guana in particular is much more crowded, alot more cars, alot more people, boats ect......but the people are the same, the beach is the same and it is still not half as crowded as other places in the world.
We had a great time as usual visiting nippers, grabbers, art cafe, loves kitchen...I love talking to Jonny, mickey, pat, easy, troy and maria and all the other GREAT GREAT folks that work extreamly hard so that we can enjoy a great relaxing vacation. We are their bread and butter!! Yes, I to hate to see it grow and change but if you can find the place in this world that is never going to change fill me in!!
These People are hard working great folks that rely on the tourist $$.

As for the new coffee shop in Hopetown.. It a great place!! The guy running it is so happy with how business is going he is swamped!! Having a very hard time finding enough help!!... Now, I am not a fancy kind of gal at all, but yes I do hit starbucks once in a while... so at about day 13 I woke and told the kids come on get in the boat we are going to Hope Town for a latte!!.... we had a great moring ride to HT and I had one of the best coconut lattes I have ever had along with a fresh coconut muffin!!
I think the point is .. as said before, be respectful of the poeole that live and work in Abaco and there is room for a little of everything..


Oh and since this is the RANT section... The only main irritant I had was all the irresponsible people comming to Guana by boat dirnking nippers all day and hardly being able to make it back to the boat and then driving the boat!!... total disregard for the island and the people who live there..and trust me I saw my share of stumbling drunks.. made it a bit uncomfortable with the kids, but I used everyone of them as a lesson to my daughters about irresponsible drinking...and how stupid you look!!
So all you folks from treasure cay and the other cays ... please come to Guana spend your $$ but only two nippers allowed!!!

there thats all ... I still love Abaco and will be back next year... progress or no progress:D
BTW Bakers Bay stinks big time!!

[Abacoparrott]

you oughta post more often.....honesty be a wunnerful thang! Great thing about Nippers is that it is as you described only a small portion of the time......Barefoot time it's GUARANATEED! I used to enjoy Nippers the most during the week. It's a great place to meet and converse with very interesting folks. Looking forward to getting my boat down this summer and spending lots of time at Nippers......I wear a bag over my head so the locals won't know it's me leaving.......:D ken

[Island Daze]

Tell it like it is Papa.

[visitortime]

"Maybe it helps to know what kind of tourist you're talking about. Unless you were born the the Bahamas or have a passport with a Bahamian registry, you're a tourist! A short-timer, weekender, Spring Breaker, visitor, cruiser, sailor, crew of a sailboat, big-shot from the media, second home owner, offshored retiree, fishing tournament pro, seasonal guest, friends or kin of the seasonal guest, lost hippie, or conch wanna-be. Or just, heh, a tourist, rather like what you see at Disneyland.

There are lots of different kinds, each with their own attitudes. My suspicion is that the locals can peg them pretty good, although they probably don't care as long as they are nice, respectful, and tip good. Drunks making whoppie in the bushes and falling off the boat is not good. At the end of the day, you might have good, okay, and bad tourists. And they can tell, just by looking at your face. See the difference in how we think?

sammie"
I hear that only a very very few actually become honorary Bahamians...it's all about respect and really loving people and their home and knowing that it is their home. Great thread.

[SamFamAustin]

Thanks for the kind message, and I bet there are some "honorary Bahamians" right here on this forum. I'm a newbie myself, but some have been coming to the Abacos since the late 80's.

I was sitting in a Tiki bar one day and I asked a lady what it took to become an "Islander." I'd been visiting for years and moved to an island off the Texas coast. She examined her glass of wine, as if divining the answer, and replied "I guess that's when we start calling you one." ;)

-sammie

[Wonkee]

At least there's not a walmart and I dare you to find good mexican food down there. I have to agree with Patty B., grouper and conch are wonderful when you're on vacation but after living down there a while you hunger for something else and it's nice to find a restaurant that is serving something different than the one down the lane. That being said, I wish I would have found the Abacos a few years earlier when they were a little less "civilized". The unfortunate truth is "nothing remains the same" and if your looking for something a bit more rugged maybe you should try one of the other less inhabited islands before they change.
I dare you to find "Good" Mexican food anywhere....

[Spagna]

Lets keep things in perspective here. No one is trying to prevent an honest Bahamian citizen from making a living. Whether it is Guana Cay or Cashiers North Carolina the issue is rampant uncontrolled over development that destroys the very reason that people were attracted to the area in the first place. Some things are approriate and some are not. As one 'native' to the mountains said to me about the house we 'dam* Yankees' (with a smile :D ) were building was that. 'It fits in.' Twenty seven years ago we purchased 26 acres of this valley. We have protected it just by taking care of it instead of doing whatever we could to make a buck off of it. And we are in the process of putting it under conservation easements so that if we ever loose it it will always stay the same.

In addition when there was no other way to save 200 more acres in the valley from going to an over developer who would have put 50 to 100 lots on the property 4 of us families got together and bought the $1,200,000.00 property with our own money. Then we spent a year trying to find a way to preserve it with public or private funds. By the way that is $78,000.00 per year in non deductable interest! :eek: The public and private funds were going to save larger tracts so we wound up selling it to another conservation minded organic farmer who put 6 lots on it including his own and put 100 acres under conservation easements so it will never be built on. The rest of the land is being organically farmed and employing people. Some of those farm hands are Mexican, by the way, and you CAN get good mexican food here in western NC. ;)

We, all of us, CAN direct HOW progress manifests itself. And NO...to each his own has limits and those limits can be reached too late when a reef is distroyed for ever or a mountain that has stood for a billion years is blasted away or a rainforrest is burned to the ground to make a few greed driven people a little richer. OR we can look ahead and see where these actions are taking us and if the end is not better than the start we have an obligation to re-direct progress so that the end is better than the beginning.

[coolchik]

I dare you to find "Good" Mexican food anywhere....

Robertos # 6, off Texas St and the 805.

Excellent Carne Asada.

[peterodgers]

The current Abaco is a very different place than the one i first reached 50 years ago. Back then, we arrived on the mail boat or on modest cruising sail boats and we were thrilled to find authentic villages and cultures manned by people relatively untouched by our modern world .

well, nowadays, Abaco has been "touched" big time. It is being turned into an extension of Florida and Haitians and Nassauvians have migrated in to reap the benefits of development, often to the disasvantage of native Abaconians. Different types of tourists and second home owners have appeared as well.

Still, outside the towns and village of Central Abaco and its cays and away from the new developments and TC, the Abacos and its people are still wonderful.

[AbacoPeach]

Very well said, Peter!!

[bellavista]

well said Peter but also describes 90 per cent of South 50 years ago compared with today.
not many of us would want all that old south, although the peace and quiet would be good.

only constant is change. many of us hoped Abacos change would be a little slower than what it has experienced.
"real problem" is Abaconians.
If they were not so capitalist oriented, businesses would have developed slower (see, eg, everyone from dave gale and thompsons after ww2 to
the johnny roberts of today.) unfortunately this positive, capitalistic energy was combined with unbelievably nice people.
less energy, less business sense, meaner people--it would still be the quiet place of 50 years ago but Abaconians, unfortunately, are just too nice and successful.
what a shame.

[HALF-A-HAMIAN]

If Abaconians are a "real problem", may I suggest You explore Nassau and the 700 other islands and cays of the Bahamas, we don't need or appreciate the pity! Although not born there, folks home consider me as much Abaconian as they, and I feel I can speak for them. From here it sounds like a biggity, "ugly American" comment.

[peterodgers]

alternative viewpoint:
Abaco development would have happened 40 years ago if internal Bahamian politics had not denied the island the funding for necesary infrastructure. History may well report that a home grown B prime minister triggered the Abaconian development we are seeing today by finally releasing just enough funding for infrastructual development to make it happen. Now, given the recent election results, there's probably a lot more infrastructure and development to come. Fasten your seat belts.

[SamFamAustin]

I was going to say something like that, Peter, but didn't want to sound like some tacky off-islander. What happens when you get better water, electricity, roads, schools, and all that nice stuff?

Here's an interesting history of the Ocean Highway to Key West. It can happen.
http://www.keyshistory.org/osh.html

/sammie

[bellavista]

hey half
we now know where the half come from. only used half the brain.
Read ALL THE WORDS and you will realize DIRECT agreement not disagreement to comments in thread.

I love you man--check your PM for English class.

[SamFamAustin]

Um, as said by a real famous actor in a real famous movie, "What we have here is a failure to communicate." Bella you said the real problem was the "Abaconians" and then rambled about how nice they were. That might have truly hurt some folks including Half. The problem is and always will be outside investment money coming into the Abacos and the fact that the central government in Nassau is addicted to it doesn't exactly help your argument. So what are the people of the Abacos supposed to do, take up arms like the Revolutionary War of 1776? I would suspect that these folks would rather make a living without all the politics and emotions and do as best they can for their families, given the circumstances. Many if not most locals could give a hoot what us Americans think about what they should be doing. If anything, the true Bahamians of the outer Islands are NOT to be blamed for anything bad that happened.

Half speaks de trut mon. His real name is Ralph.
/sammie

[HALF-A-HAMIAN]

Thanks, Sammie. You read between the lines. It came across to me, that these poor, third-world people have tried to take on capitalism, that only Americans have knowledge of how to handle properly, and it has bespoiled our vision of quaintness of them. The first voyage my grandfather made after they were married, they were gone six weeks and his share was a shilling. That's 12 pence. Fourteen cents U.S. And it's thought a shame for these people to look for any venue to better themselves? Sorry, I can't see continued stagnation to benefit the outside world's view of how it thinks it should be.

[bellavista]

it was a joke itwas a joke

give me a frigging break

[SamFamAustin]

Oh ........... hey on this board we're all friends even if we have to chunk a few arrows and expletives every now and then ... I should have caught the joke, as I'm one of the worst pranksters. It sure helps to be in person so you can see the expression and roll of the eyes.

So, I guess I got a land crab in my sneakers, huh? :eek:

Reminds of another thead on the main board about how sensitive the politics are these days in the Abacos. Here on our little sandbar in Texas there is also a town council election, hotly contested. So one gal accused an incumbent councilman of grabbing his crotch suggestively in front of her (see why I put this on the rant now?).

So at a fundraiser that involved about 20 of us in various stages of mild to moderate inebriation, the Mayor says "I think she's got her baseball signals all messed up."

Then he rubbed his nose and touched his cap and his right leg near his fly and nodded his head real quick, just exactly like you see the pro pitchers do on TV. We were howling with laughter and nearly falling down. A few grown men blew beer out their nostrils. :D

[PattyB]

Was he involved with a baseball game at the time he grabbed his croch in front of the gal?

[SamFamAustin]

No, and it's a difficult question because only one person noted it among maybe a score of people, like way over 20. This is interesting because the gal in question posted a large plywood sign for her business against all town rules, yet the man accused of "the crotch incident" was actually trying to get her a deferred ruling and really help her out - as in no fines, no problems, let's work it out. That's exactly when "it" happened. Election season can be a mighty fearful thing, and true it is not always so humorous. I wasn't there. Mama trained me against picking my nose in public and doing things like that.
sammie

[PattyB]

I think I see the way it happened. He has a bad habit. She is sensitive. His public joke about base ball signals, lacked taste. If I were there, beer would have been flowing out of my nose, also. Not because I found the comment funny, though. It would have come from shock, that a candidate would say such a thing! My mama, and daddy, brought me up with better manners too.

[SamFamAustin]

Agreed, my friend, and I'll say no more on it. It was something of a shock when said, though. :rolleyes:

[Abacoparrott]

thangs suck.........including uncontrolled sensitivity.....:D ken

[Lisa Marie]

Agree 110%. I came to Abaco to get away from my McMansion. I purchased in BPS to get away from MH-& I am not a hermit.

[aligator al]

AMEN!!! I have lived here ten years and resent the people who visit here two weeks a year and want to tell me what is good for me. If this place is so wrong go somewhere else and leave us alone to enjoy LIVING here as an American, not just visiting.

[Wonkee]

it was a joke itwas a joke

give me a frigging break

From your post I have been lead to believe that you are a Person that thinks that they are well educated. I consider myself an educated person, I however do not feel it necessary to show the world how great I am, or try to speak above others heads, you posted that the real problem were the "Abaconians" you put it in Bold letters. there is nothing about this that in any way says that you were joking. I speak fluent Sarcasm, and ***, and could in no way see this joke. What does it gain you to have gone to school, Grammer, or post graduate if you are unable to communicate effectivly.
The Problem is "Abaconians", I work with Mentally handicapped PreSchoolers that communicate better than you did if that is a joke. So go back to School, and make sure that you pay attention in your Communication classes, especially Interpersonal, and Mass communication. If The Abaconians are the problem I ask that you would do them a favor by not supporting thier buesiness' and staying in California. They were a self supporting, and self sustained people before the tourists came and they could survive without you.
I was in Cherokee the First day they had power. The people had every light in thier houses on, all of this with out the sound of the Generator. If having something as simple as Electricity, is that bad, you can just go buy a few "Carbon offsets" for them, and save the world. Get Real, and learn how to communicate.

[ModeratorOne]

Okay, guys, this is the "rant," but let's not get nasty!!

[SamFamAustin]

Well we all need to flame out a little bit to clear the system ... I was looking for a poster picture with the caption "Think Before You Post" and one guy in a group of stockbrokers walking down the street had flames coming out his backside, "Guess Which One." :D

But no big deal and I respect everyone no matter if they live in a settlement, have a McMansion, are an ocean wanderer or expat, want to visit occassionally in nice digs, or live like a beach bum. If we all thought the same way we'd be so, so awful boring.

A very astutue observer noted in an earlier post that this could be a very sensitive time in the Cays. Politics happened. Like discussing religion and the "war on terror" this can lead to some hurt feelings real fast. Sigh and think the Abacos, everybody, and relax. If I may be so bold, "tink de way mon."
/sammie

[bellavista]

what the doc has created is a new board like the old board used to be in the 90s.
folks giving their opinions. well founded or not. i like this restaurant or not. i like don't like this boat rental or not etc. sometimes jokes, sarcasm or whatever doesnt come thru on emails like it would in person. whether i agree with brillance or stupidity of wonkee--or in between which I do agree with--the old board is broken and the doc's board is great.
for newcomers, post 1999-2001, the old board used to be this way.
opinions. and facts. fun info and frank criticism. for those of us that loved sinclair we can never understand the current AMG censorship.
i think wonkee has lost his mind for his comment. He obviously thinks i am off the reservation with my comments. it's opinions.
wonkee--i will be at the house on guana in June for 2 weeks, july for a week and sept for a week.
come by anytime and say hi ANYTIME--404.680.7024.
drinks are on me
we can decide whose egg is on whose face friend--
skip

[sail pending]

Facetious
Fa-ce-tious
1.) Not meant to be taken seriously or literally.
2.) Amusing; humorous
3.) Lacking serious intent

BellaVista was being facetious in his or her post to make a point that should be flattering to any Abaconian. Go back and read her post and pretend that Lewis Grizzard or Carl Hiaasen authored it and you should understand that whoever BellaVista is happens to be pro-Abaco. Sometimes things that might be funny when you HEAR them are not funny when you READ them.

[bellavista]

the fact i paid 3000 dollars to last poster for his/her comments should not effect--
1--dollars spent on scgr
2--dollars spent on guana or abaco businesses
because dollars are not nearly as important as being in the abacos since 1978--that's absolutely priceless.

it's the best place in the world.

i hope the wonkester will agree with me on that.

wonkester--it's still 404.680.7024.

give me a call.

don't need a date. i am already married as most of abaco knows, but give me a call.

Skip Hudgins
would love to know your real name and real phone number bud.

to sail pending--
we all think we are funny--
like most things in life, i thought it was obvious but it wasn't
i will keep my day job and leave the stand up comedy to others from now on.

thanks

skip hudgins

[SamFamAustin]

Dang, now it turns out we all love each other. Man I love this Forum. This is like way better than in Oklahoma with all my second cousins up yonder.

Skip, or Bellavista, you sound reasonable but they way you write sometimes can be interpreted as being slightly threatening - I hope you don't take offense there. I'm sure in person with a Kalik or better we'd all be perfectly fine and have a great time.

To Half and Wonkee, may I ask if there is a wee bit of angst about Cherokee? That's an honest question, with no malice in my heart, and an open mind.

/sammie

[HALF-A-HAMIAN]

Yes, I was practically raised at Cherokee, and the people there instilled the values I have today. The only thing I can agree with Ms. Rodham on, is 'it takes a village', and this is one of many in the Bahamas that still instill those morals and values upon their children. I'm VERY proud of my connection to the Bahamas, and like the Hag sang, "when you're runnin' down my country, man, you're walkin' on the fightin' side of me'. And that goes for Both countries!

Is that angst?
Chuck

[Abacoparrott]

I read Bella's (Skip) comments as very positive of Abaconians. He is saying that they are very efficient, astute, and hard working businesspeople as well as being incredibly "nice" people......the "nice" part possibly indicating that others, ie. Amer-cun companies.....might try to take advantage of the entire Abaco environment. This was stated in what I call a "tongue-in-cheek" format.

I also certainly agree with Wonkee and Half "defending" themselves if they feel that they have been "challenged". I sure as hell would. However, this is not the case. Let's just chaulk it up to a misunderstanding by some very fine folks who are all passionate about their love of Abaco.

Now, I would have a glass of wine but it's only 6:30 am. Guess I'll wait til tonight to raise a glass to the three of you guys......ya sure made this thread interesting reading.....:D Ken

[Wonkee]

So I like to say things out in the Open when I say them, i do not post, nice, or semi nice on the board, then send rude PMs to people. I am a genuine person I try to say things as they are to me, not necessarily you, I learned in School, that Some things need to be said to people for them to take it the right way. Most men are Visual in nature, they react to what they see, it is thier base for Judgement. When some persons on the board read the post that was "sarcasm" or fecious in nature, they focused on the Bold letters. By this they focuse on those words. I will let you know that I recived a copy of the Oh so nice PM that was sent to Half, by Bellavista and was not exactly happy when I wrote my post. which is why there are refrences to "Educated" in the post. Mama told me if I didnt have nice things to say, not to talk. I usually don't listen.....My post was directed at the fact that Bellavista chose a poor tactic, in using sarcasm in a post since Sarcasm involves inflection, and emotion, things not easily shown in print. Whis is compleatly beside the point of Sarcasm
1. A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.
2. A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.(American Heritage Dictonary)
So After reading your posts towards Me and Half ""hey half
we now know where the half come from. only used half the brain." ,How is one supposed to see your post as nice, or uplifting to Abaconians. Context, Inflection, Knowing Audience....all important to effectively communicate. I read you slamming someone in a PM, and then on the Board, I had an informed opinion...he was rude, so I asserted his post must be negative.
When I want to say, I think Abaconians are great I say Abaconians are Great, I dont know who or what will be reading this post. I assume that everyone on this board Loves Abaco, and want's what is best for her. But I feel that my opinion is trumped by anyone that is a true Abaconian that lives there, and has to live life day to day. I was asked last week, when I was comming Home. But, sadly I can not be there right now. Yes Abaco is Home, and always will be, I am Bahamian American, I love both my heritages, and the freedoms that are afforded by both, The Base of God, and the fact that all men are created Equal. So Bella, I am sorry if I think you need to make sure you are communicating better, it is my opinion. I am not sorry, that I felt attacked, and deffended my Home, and heritage. So thank a Soldier for fighting and risking his life so We can belittle, and bash each other on here.

[ModeratorOne]

I have been so impressed how people who have joined this Forum have been fairly civil. Please let's keep it that way! You can have your opinions, but let's not attack each other. Use the PM if you feel the need to attack, but please don't publicize it.

[bellavista]

i've done enough apologizing. lets just move on.
think of it as professor irwin corey.

[visitortime]

A while back on this thread...wayyyyy back...an important point was made about waste management. Did you all realize that Baker's Bay Club has been given 6 permits without consultation by Hope Town Council prior to the election and has now posted applications for 3 more permits (ironically in the almost proper fasion) recently post-election on the community board by the ferry dock in Guana? A wastewater treatment facility was PROMISED by the developers in order to develop the property. Funny, I just don't see anything even close to resembling a facility like that down there....maybe it's like Wonder Woman's jet and it's invisible.Looks like they think Guana can handle around 350 plus more soak aways. By the way the attempt to post proper permit app notifications fell short by not being posted by deadline designed to give interested parties in the community a reasonable amount of time to notify council of their objections. Nice try though. Hey, anybody notice how ALL the previously unlicensed BBC carts miraculously became tagged also after election?? Seems there's a new sherriff in town pardner :)

[SamFamAustin]

OK, educate me up here on water treatments systems.

First do any Abaco settlements have a municipal water treatment system of any kind, such as for freshwater, stormwater, and wastewater?

Did Baker's Bay and DLC agree to municipal water systems, or does it require have a cistern and a septic tank? What controls would be used for the golf course and are they intending to use partially treated wastewater?

It helps so much to know the facts before launching a really good rant! Thanks for educatin' me up. :cool:
/sammie

[visitortime]

I think the developers EIA (Environmental Impact Assessment) is on the save guana cay reef site. The developers have previously mentioned that were going to model their waste treatment on the "award winning" system in the Fl Keys. The Fl Keys are just now attempting to bring all residents online. It is expensive,held up continuously, and far far far from complete. There is no award winning central waste treatment sysytem for the Keys. A few small communities have small plants that only serve their area. The rest is ceptic/soak away.If you can't find the EIA there it may be on the developers pirate site :save guana cay..notice they forgot the reef????
Isn't it ironic :)

The most important point is that there are no monitors...anywhere. How can anyone insure compliance when there is no compliance with the compliance requirement ??? Somehow that sentence makes sense !

[sail pending]

I found it very interesting when I was on Guana and saw a cart that had no liscense tag that I later was told belonged to the developer. My tag fell off the front of my golf cart on Green Turtle and I was warned right away by a very nice officer that it was unacceptable to run around with only one of two required tags on a golf cart. When I later saw those carts on Guana I started to ask myself, "who do these people think they are?". While I find it amusing that they have now tagged there vehicles in an attempt to become legit after the change of watch I almost wish that they would have kept those carts untagged as it was a major eye opener for those of us on the fence about the development on Guana and the sencerity of the people behind it.
WHO DO these people think they are?
Are they above the law?

[patw]

We found it strange that for way over a year we have been asking DLC why they didn't have tags on any of their vehicles too. We even stopped the CEO of the company when he was here for the Barefoot concert. We stopped his cart and looked at the back and looked at the front and then he was told that all of the vehicles on the road on Guana Cay were required by law to be registered and have a tag on them. He just stared and said nothing. We often wondered if they were even insured. Now, as you said, the government changed and suddenly their vehicles have tags! I have even sent e-mails to their office, complaining about the way they drive and I received a response telling me that they would have a talk with their employees and then they offered to give me a tour of BB!! They have flipped two of their carts, that we know of, and took off after causing damage but there were witnesses.

[SamFamAustin]

At least the developers didn't kill anybody, like down here in my neck of the woods. The mixture of Louisiana oil & gas trash with typical South Texas corruption was apparently way too much. I hope you fare much better.

[CR]

Papanasty,

If you find no merrit in this site - then why come read it and post?

I would suggest you should get a life and stay away from this forum since all you can do is try to find fault in everyone else.

R.

[papanasty]

Cr Obviously You Feel Threatend The Thread Was Only Up About 3 Minutes And Removed,i Quess Freedom Of Speech Does Not Apply To This Board.it Was Not A Question Of If The Board Or Post Has Merit The Point Was That This Post Is So Bias And Repetative That It Has Lost Its Usefulness Its Grasping At Staws To Keep It Alive.surpriseingly Quit A Few People Saw It And Called Me In Amasement That It Was So Quickly Removed.i Must Say You Are Attentive. Nothing Personel But This Section Stands For Rants And Opinions,i Quess That Is Dictated By Ones Standards If You Do'nt Like It You Just Shut It Up.what A Wonder Full Democracy We Live In. Chow As They Would Say! By The Way Tell Crispen I Said Hello Have'nt Seen Him In A Long Time :d

[CR]

Papanasty,

I have nothing to do with what goes or stays on this or any other board.

I post when I want and I just like you have had posts removed when I "get on a role".

You didn't even have a point to make - you only complained about the board it's self.

Again I ask why do you bother to visit this site if it bothers you so?



R.

[papanasty]

I Quess I Do It For The Same Reason You Do.thats Like Saying Wy Read A Book Because You Said Its No Good ? I Just Sit On The Other Side Of The Fence :) Remember Not For The Faint At Heart

[Spagna]

The word is 'ciao' not 'chow'.

[papanasty]

Thanks I'll Have To Remember That ;)

[visitortime]

Guess, amazement, personal, repetitive, surprisingly,wonderful.
No harm done on spelling mistakes though...I am a huge culprit. :)

[visitortime]

As for repetitiveness found on the issue of DLC. My best advice is to take the time to realize that if a subject is repeatedly brought up it usually means that there has been no satisfactory conclusion to the issue. Waste management, illegal activities and environmental destruction are still going on down there..I really don't see comments about it stopping until the issue is resolved. They are worthy subjects that require attention. To ignore then would be to follow the developer's lead and that is never going to happen.

[SamFamAustin]

Hey Papa must have been a real corker because very little except for kiddie porn spam gets deleted from this forum - and I don't mean to lump you in that crowd in the least! Perhaps you were in support of limited development at Baker's? Hey that's cool, no need to bust a gasket. I think we all agree that a certain amount of growth and development is bound to occur, and we can't turn back the clocks to 1973 or some idyllic illusion of the past.

Some of us like the idea of fitting the house into the natural surroundings, rather than the "clean and scrape" method. I live in one of the poorest counties of the United States (Cameron County) but one of the richest islands, given the number of residents - over 5 billion in real estate but only 2,000 locals. I was sternly lectured by one gentleman who said all those poor folk need is some decent work to pay for some tacos and cokes, as they were lucky to make ten grand a year. "Tacos and cokes, you're going to deny them that?"

If life was easy, Papa, we wouldn't have to debate about stuff like this. /Sam

[Spagna]

Spelling isn't the issue...I'm Italian and it irks me when people don't get it right...I offered some info...it was taken graciously...FINI! :) Now back to the Rant! :D

[papanasty]

No Sam it was just truth on basic realtime issues i read. The last few threads on the post just seemed so hateful. Simple things like golf carts license witch is a cronic problem everywere on the outer Cays and septic tank or wastewater treatment facilities,Im a developer and last time i was involved in a construction project the toilet and septic system or in this case waste treatment facility if i remember was one of the last things to be completed. people should keep there rants or veiws in there proper perspetive with real time issues. Now when the homes start to go up, there should be a watch dog or some way to see that they are putting a facility as PROMISED in to properly handle the waste,i just think the post was visous and with out merit for complaint, they have barley scratched the surface in regards to the development and here someone is worried about the toilet or if the golf cart is licensed,And as far as accident the old saying S*** happens thanks for the reply Papa P.S. if the spelling is wrong its because i only have a 8th grade education sorry but i never got the chance to go to Harvard :)

[JJ]

Hey, I am new to this board. I am an environmental engineer. I am involved in water supply, water reuse and wastewater treatment. Here is something to think about, whether it involves drinking water or wastewater treatment -- in the process of making something clean, something else must get dirty.

A reverse osmosis system removes the salt (brine) from brackish water or seawater giving you fresh water. But the brine needs to go somewhere afterwards. Maybe a little salt back to oceans or estuaries isn't a big deal, but when you start talking larger developments, it may result in an increased salinity that can upset the ecological balance. To make wastewater clean, you have to remove the waste from the water -- this gives you a byproduct know as "sludge" with its own disposal issues.

Just thought I would throw that out there.

[patw]

We were told they will be producing a million gallons of water a day down there. So what you have said is indeed scary.
By the way, Papanasty, the developers Heads of Agreement with the Bahamian government and the EIA, states that the infrastucture will be complete before houses are built. That includes roads, power, water and a water treatment plant. They are putting in a deep well injection system. This same type of system is killing the offshore reefs off of Florida.

[JJ]

The premise of deep injection wells is good. The injection zone is supposed to be of non-potable quality (i.e., not suitable for drinking) and it is to be confined -- this means that the zone is topped by an impereable layer that prevents the waste from migrating upwards and contaminating upper zones of the aquifer. In some places deep injection wells are working fine, but there have been a number of problems in Florida where the wastewater has been suspected of migrating upwards and causing contamination problems. This is the case in the keys, in Miami, and in St. Petersburg. Florida has recently implemented more stringent regulations for deep well injection (requiring high level disinfection prior to discharge) because of these concerns and many communities are lessening their reliance on deep injection wells, using them as back up to reuse systems.

[coolchik]

According to the EIA, DLC was not going to use deep-well injection for waste, because of concerns of it leaching back up. But they are going to use it for the supersaline brine from the R/O system. Brine that the US EPA classifies as industrial waste.

[JJ]

I am not familiar with what DLC is doing for water supply or wastewater. I just assumed when Pat W made reference to the Florida issues (which to my knowledge are related to deep wells used for domestic wastewater and not to deep wells used for brine) that this was their solution for domestic wastewater disposal.

The EPA's classification of membrane concentrate as industrial waste triggers more rigorous design standards for the deep wells. The classification has to do with the fact that you are taking constituents that are naturally found in sea water or brackish water and are then concentrating them to levels that then meet thresholds for industrial waste. It is somewhat controversial that brine is subject to these more stringent requirements since the constituents are not of industrial origin, just naturally occuring components of sea water.

So, just curious, what are their plans for domestic wastewater disposal?

Also, I don't think the "million gallons of water per day" could be accurate -- maybe 100,000 gallons per day is what you mean. General rule of thumb for planning in the US is about 150 gallons per person per day, so 1 million gallons would serve the domestic water needs of over 6,000 people.

[patw]

In their EIA, they estmate 6000 people by 2012 will be living on Guana Cay. Their numbers, not mine.

[patw]

Deep disposal well for treated Effluent from the waste water treatment plant and combined brine from the Sea Water Reverse Osmosis, 500 foot below ground level, 400 ft. of 10 in. (min) casing

Brine only from the SWRO, 300 ft. BGL, 200 ft. of 8 in. (min.) casing

Feed water supply wells for SWRO, 160 ft BGL.







I am not familiar with what DLC is doing for water supply or wastewater. I just assumed when Pat W made reference to the Florida issues (which to my knowledge are related to deep wells used for domestic wastewater and not to deep wells used for brine) that this was their solution for domestic wastewater disposal.

The EPA's classification of membrane concentrate as industrial waste triggers more rigorous design standards for the deep wells. The classification has to do with the fact that you are taking constituents that are naturally found in sea water or brackish water and are then concentrating them to levels that then meet thresholds for industrial waste. It is somewhat controversial that brine is subject to these more stringent requirements since the constituents are not of industrial origin, just naturally occuring components of sea water.

So, just curious, what are their plans for domestic wastewater disposal?

Also, I don't think the "million gallons of water per day" could be accurate -- maybe 100,000 gallons per day is what you mean. General rule of thumb for planning in the US is about 150 gallons per person per day, so 1 million gallons would serve the domestic water needs of over 6,000 people.

[JJ]

In their EIA, they estmate 6000 people by 2012 will be living on Guana Cay. Their numbers, not mine.

You have to be kidding!

[JJ]

I am not familiar with Bahamas geology, but deep wells in Florida that I am familiar with that dispose of domestic wastewater go much deeper than 500' to reach the appropriate injection zone. I believe the ones in the Keys are in the 1500 - 2000 ft. range. But I am not a hydrogeologist, just work with them. I will ask a guy who does some subconsulting work for us who also does work in the Bahamas what he thinks of injecting at 500'.

Editing to add: Google is wonderful. I googled Miami-Dade's South District wastewater treatment plant that discharges to deep injection wells that have been suspected of leaking upwards -- they are cased to 2400' to 2746' feet with open hole to 3054' -3193'. These are adjacent to Biscayne Bay in South Miami-Dade County near Black Point.

Deep disposal well for treated Effluent from the waste water treatment plant and combined brine from the Sea Water Reverse Osmosis, 500 foot below ground level, 400 ft. of 10 in. (min) casing

Brine only from the SWRO, 300 ft. BGL, 200 ft. of 8 in. (min.) casing

Feed water supply wells for SWRO, 160 ft BGL.

[papanasty]

I have not read the report from EIA and would appreciate it if some one could direct me to the report so i could read there findings and recommendations for the DLC project.I spent the better part of my younger years working with and for a company that dealt with nothing but enviormental waste in the late 70's to late 80's and i have worked and assisted in cleaning up some of the most polluted places in the US.Back in the late 70's when people started to recognize what industry was doing to our enviorment companys started getting in to the waste handling and disposal buisness and i worked for a company called Industrial Dredgeing and Engineering.We dealt strictly with waste I know first hand how polluted our country was because i cleaned up alot of the waste that existed in our back yards at that time.We did work for companys like Mobil Chemical, KerMcgee,Large corporations that were destroying 100 to 1000's of acres of land because of the almighty dollar,I can remember our work vehicles being searched daily for cameras because the companys we worked for did not want the public to see what was going on.We have come a long way since those years in the awareness of what industry and development can do,although enough has not been done yet.I am not condoning the entire development by DLC but i am curious to the statements made on this post to the validity of some of the statements made.one is the claim of a million gallon per day r/o system proposed for the development and how the population will grow to 6000 people on Guana by the year 2012 thats only 4.5 years from now thats hard to believe and how they are going to deal with the waste generated through home development,Marina development,restraunts etc. surely there must be a concrete plan? I just can't see government and i mean any government agreeing to this type of development with out the required needs to support the infrastructure of the development, am i missing something here? Surely there must be guidlines!If there are no plans or commitments then i would have to agree that issues need to be addressed.People not familiar with large scale development sometimes do'nt understand why things progress the way they do, to them it looks like there putting the cart before the horse. Maybe keeping the concerned public more informed would be a solution to the on going problem of the development,people need to know whats happening on a project as large as this or rants and complaints come up as i am seeing on this post.Nothing against engineers but when you start throwing all those statistics and numbers at the public 90% of them do'nt understand a thing your saying,theres a old german saying < keep it simple stupid > Papanasty :)

[coolchik]

Ironically, it is at http://www.saveguanacay.com/reports.php

Their attempt to steal the name.

The R/O is basically for the golf course. One million gallons a day is accurate.

The problem is the supersaline brine and the coral reefs. Even a small change can kill them.

http://www.oceansatlas.org/unatlas/uses/uneptextsph/settleph/2575rfsalt.html

"Thus, reef communities are sensitive to relatively small changes in temperature and salinity."

If DLC really cared, they would pump the brine through a pipe a couple miles into the Atlantic.

2012 was if the development went smoothly. So it's been pushed back a couple more years.

[coolchik]

The EIA is a sham. Nothing in it is being followed. The "Monitoring Team" have all gone separate ways (one even works for one of DLC's sub-contractors). Dr. Livingstone has promised for six months a new EIA will be available. Also the SaveGuanaCay website is managed by the lead scientist's husband, and owned by DLC.

[papanasty]

Although a million a day R/O system would produce alot of brine discharge and i do not know the specifics on the salinity of the discharge i know our sea water salinity around here runs between 32000 and 34000 ppm. i have a waterplant on Elbow Cay and produce 20000 gpd 24 hrs and have been dischargeing my brine reject in to my neighbors water fall that he has built on his salt water pond that he has on his property for several years at his request and he has not lost a single turtle, fish, or any other type of sea life that exists in the pond so i do not totaly agree with your determination of the damage that the brine discharge would do to the sea life.bare in mind this is a small scale and the pond goes up and down with the tide but it has some relativity to your claim that it kills sea life :confused:

[JJ]

Thanks for the link to the EIA. My computer is being very uncooperative at the moment so I have been unable to open/download the report. I did click on the sidebars where it says Water Management and Waste Management. These weren't too helpful. But it did say that all wastewater generated by the development will be used to irrigate the golf course (golf courses in Florida use on average 300,000 gallons per day to irrigate but may go long periods -- as long as a month or more -- when no water is applied and other times such as during initial grow in of grass and during extended dry periods when up to 3 times as much is needed.) There was not much mention of what would be done with wastewater in excess of what the golf course needs (such as during extended rainy periods) but there is mention of an artificial wetlands so I am guessing this will be used to treat the excess wastewater before discharging into the Sea of Abaco or the ocean or the creek or somewhere. The Waste Management section seems to acknowledge that there will be water quality degradation in the near-shore environment.

Papanasty, if an RO plant is treating 1 million gallons per day of sea water, it will produce around 150,000 to 200,000 gallons per day of brine. This brine will contain all of the salt that you remove from the 1 million gallons. So if you assume 32,000 mg/L of salt is being removed, your 150,000 gpd to 200,000 gpd of brine will have a salt concentration of 160,000 to over 200,000 mg/L (mg/L is milligrams per liter and is the same as ppm, or parts per million). Coolchik is right in that reef systems and estuaries can be sensitive to minor changes in concentrations of salt. I have not been able to yet determine what they plan to do with the brine. I will read the EIA when my computer and internet service provider decide to cooperate with me.

[papanasty]

I think you misunderstood me our salt water or ocean water in this area is about 32000 ppm before it is treated through reverse osmosis,i do not know what the salt concentration is after it passes through my membranes and is then brine or rejected waste water,i have never tested the brine reject from my machines,i know it takes about 13 gallons of salt water for me to get 5 gallons of fresh water with a salinity of around 220 ppm.i did page through the EIA data and am disturbed on some of the subjects that they touched on.Mainly how they are going to deal with there solid waste and there waste from homes,marina,resturaunts,etc.I was under the impression that all this was going to be dealt with through centralized state of the art waste treatment facility like most large developements would have .I do believe if this accessment is a final draft of what is to come it is inadaquate and needs to be reavaluated. Septic tanks and drain fields are not the answer for the concentration of homes and facilities that are proposed for the development. My point i was makeing on the R/O system was that in my opinion i do not believe there would be a large adverse change in deep well dischargeing of brine reject from makeing water on the marine eco system,but i am not in favor of human waste deep well disposal i do believe that could come back to impact the fragile reef system that exists around Guana Cay

[JJ]

Large RO systems are designed to have about an 85 percent recovery. That means for every 100 gallons you treat, you will recover (produce) 85 gallons of fresh drinking water. All of the salt removed from the water is in the brine.

So if you have 32,000 parts of salt per million parts of water, you will now be putting the same parts of salt in a much smaller part of water. This makes a very concentrated brine.

With an 85 percent recovery, a 1 million gallon per day RO plant will produce 850,000 gallons of fresh water and 150,000 gallons of brine per day. So if you remove 32,000 parts of salt from the million gallons of sea water you are treating, you will end up with the same 32,000 parts of salt in only 150,000 gallons of brine water. 32,000 parts salt in 150,000 gallons of water equals 213,333 parts of salt per million gallons of water, or a 213,333 ppm concentration of salt in your brine.

Papanasty, Because your own RO system is more inefficient (you don't recover a very large percentage of fresh water for every gallon treated) your brine will not be as concentrated. Your brine would only be about twice as salty as the water you are treating. Even though it sounds better to produce a less concentrated brine, you are producing much less water for a high energy expenditure. That is why larger RO systems try to recover as much fresh water as possible from the water they are treating resulting in a smaller quantity of very concentrated brine.

I hope that clarifies.

[papanasty]

I know the technology has gotten much better and the fresh water recovery rate is much better,i'm still useing old technology,what they do is recycle the water that has already passed through the membrane once via a direct driven high pressure pump usually driven by a large three phase motor,then the reject water goes through a turbo at 800 psi driveing the high pressure pump that sends the salt water back through the membranes again before rejecting it i've seen one of the new machines Criss Thompson has one out at Matlows Cay,he has about a 85% recovery rate on the machine he has,i would maybe consider going that route but you really need three phase power to run the motor required to run the first stage high pressure pump that rejects flow at 800 psi in turn to run a water driven turbo or pump that sends the saltwater back through the membranes again at 800 psi and they also are very quite.If i thought about it enough and wanted to spend some money i could probably do a conversation but you need that steady pressure you get from the first stage pump to drive the turbine second stage pump and i do'nt know if you could get that with the conventional Cat piston driven pump,you would have to deal with the pulsation you get from the piston driven pump. the only real differance between the old technology and the new is that 2nd. turbine pump that the motor driven pump runs,i've seen the pump it looks like a turbo charger on a diesel engine.If you can figure out a way to convert let me know i could double my production and cut my costs in half because your biggest cost in makeing water is electricity I'm always ready to try something new Papanasty:)

[JJ]

Papanasty, I do not know much about the smaller volume RO systems. The biggest drawbacks to RO are energy costs and brine disposal.

I was finally able to open the EIA without it taking over a minute to open each of the 162 pages.

I know some things in the EIA may have been modified since the report was written. I hope all the continuous monitoring promised is being performed and public outreach and sharing of data is being done as promised in the EIA.

Here is what I gleaned regarding water and wastewater:
Water supply includes:
- 250,000 gallons of cisterns. Rainwater collected in cisterns will be used for lawn and landscape irrigation and other outside use.
- 500,000 gallon per day (gpd) RO system that will serve the drinking water needs and will also be used to supplement treated wastewater used to irrigate the golf course. Brine will be disposed via deep injection wells.
- 150,000 gpd wastewater treatment with 14 million gallons of water storage in ponds around the golf course.

Papanasty, There is no mention of on-site sewer systems; as a matter of fact it is indicated in bold print that no on-site systems will be used. It states the centralized sewage system will be built at the start of development (so I guess it is up and operating now??? if so, where is wastewater going with no golf course yet??? I have a feeling from things I have read on this board about on going construction that they may not be abiding by promises made in the EIA.).

Some of my initial concerns are somewhat assuaged after reading this as long as they follow through, but I still do not see how a development of this nature will not have significant negative environmental impacts on the Cay and surrounding waters. They even go so far as to state in the EIA that water quality degradation is anticipated.

As another note, it appears that the reason the RO system is so large is due to the need to supplement golf course irrigation. 150,000 gallons per day of wastewater is only about half of what you need to irrigate a 100-ac. golf course on an average basis. Like I said earlier, there are times when none or very little will be used (thus I assume the need for the 14 million gallons of storage ponds around the golf course -- a little less than 100 days of storage -- I hope the ponds are lined). Even with the RO supply to augment, they may be stretched to meet the irrigation needs of the golf course during extended dry periods. One thing that puzzles me is why go to the expense of producing ultra pure RO water just to throw on a golf course. Most golf courses in coastal areas can actually tolerate pretty high salt concentrations. Maybe they will blend the treated RO water with untreated raw water and save a few dollars on the production of water.

150,000 gallons per day of sewage is equivalent to what would be produced by 1,000 people. Still a lot of people on little ol' Guana

Cookchik - I actually think that deep well injection of brine is a better option for disposal of brine as long as it is going into a proper injection zone. It will not pose the same threats to the reefs as we see in the keys where poorly treated domestic wastewater has been injected in the wells for many years. The construction of an offshore ocean outfall for brine would be destructive of the reef environment that the pipeline would have to cross to reach the deep water outfall. Just my opinion based on what I read.

[papanasty]

JJ Seems that i got the same response from the EIA report as you did,looks to me that its going to be your basic let the people that build there homes worry about were there water comes from, septic tanks will work for homes i do'nt see that as a problem in the development but what good are large cisterns if god wo'nt fill them.I can tell you from experiance as i have lived here for 18 years that the average rainfall in the report stated i believe was 60" per year is a joke,and we are in another drought phase again and who knows how long it will last,these big homes that will be built are going to have extensive landscapeing and if there anything like the home owners on Elbow Cay there going to want everything to look pristine and that takes water lots of it!They will just buy water makers and for every water maker put in they have to discharge the brine somewere,I for the life of me do not understand why they do'nt put in the infrastructure for a central water system and sell water they are going to do all that trenching to put the power,telephone ,cable tv in the ground why not put the water lines in the ground at the same time. This is what i thought was going to be done and and it looks to me there wo'nt be any type of storm drain collection when the roads are put in to those back up holding ponds for storm or rain run off ponds.I have been selling water for 10 years now and i can produce graphs that will tell you when its going to rain and when its not going to rain based on the water i have sold over the years and that report is'nt even close to reality.They are going to have to do something were the marina,restraunt,and clubhouse are going to deal with the sewage because they can't build big enough septic tanks to handle what will be produced between those 3 amenities,the BOD or biological oxygen demand in the septic tanks will not be able to handle or dispose of the solids and toilet paper generated from use of the facilities and they will constantly be pumping out the tanks,its a cronic problem here at all the hotels and resorts on Elbow Cay now.I hope they rethink some of the things in the report or do a revision of some sort to address some of these potential problems that are inevitabal.I am for the development i think it will be good for the economy but i see many issues that need to be looked at and revised and the marina MUST have a pump out station for all those large boats that will be comeing to the marina.I realize that a lot of the large yaghts being built today actually have sewage treatment plants on there boats now and this is a big step forward in protecting our fragile waters :rolleyes:

[visitortime]

I see the addition of over 350 ceptic/soak aways as a HUGE problem..along with the accumulated runoff of chemicals from the Mc Mansions that will line the entire North end of Guana. It is a measurable and detrimental stress that will most certainly affect the reef and surrounding area. Already from aerial shots you can see the spread of green algae from the indiscriminate dredge practices..add the ceptic runoff and it is akin to a lethal dose. The developers promisedf a waste treatment system and no ceptics. Funny how things change. Perhaps you are for the development on Guana because you don't live there..but rest assured the runoff will be lapping at Elbow's shores also.

[visitortime]

..and remember: the developers began their campaign of environmental mismanagement by dumping DIRECTLY into the sand about ten feet from the waters edge the 8,000 plus gallons of old fuel left buried in a large storage tank by Disney. Cost effective for DLC...a lesson for the residents that will not be swept under the rug. How many more did they dump??? What a great way to save money...don't put them on a barge to be disposed of properly elsewhere...no, just uncap, dump out, and hope nobody sees you..

[visitortime]

Papa, also so you know that I understand and appreciate your points..I respect that you belive that the development will have positive economic benefits but please consider this: There are no Bahamians in any administrative positions on the project. The employees that recieve a sizable wage are Americans. Jobs that are held there by Americans are jobs that could have been filled by Bahamians. One American employee is collecting a salary of over $125,000.00 a year, yet he has no special training or experience in the field in which he is working. The job was not offered to a Bahamian. That individual is only one example of this "business practice" . The Bahamian employees have been treated shoddily. Walk outs and protests have occured because of this poor treatment. NO Bahamian recieves a salary even close to the amount that Americans are making there.
In the beginning DLC promised increased revenue all around the area from the project..beginning with the taxi drivers in Marsh Harbour. Within a week the drivers realized that the "guests " were not going to be taking a taxi. They were picked up at the airport by one of the duty free DLC Suburbans . Next promise: ferry revenue. Next answer: the "guests" are transferred by private vessel..never to step foot on a ferry. Are the boats DLC is using to carry guests Bahamian made??? No, they are American. Did DLC buy the vehicles that bring "guests" from the airport in the Bahamas? No. Marina engineer? Not Bahmaian. Director of marketing? Not Bahamian. Forman? American. Surveyors? American. Sales and Real Estate? American. Dredging company (that recently quit!)? American. Tentmakers? American. Brochure and website design? American. And on and on and on..

[JJ]

First, I am an American with no financial interest whatsoever in Guana Cay or Bakers Bay. I have visited Guana and believe that the cay will not be able to withstand this development as described in the EIA without suffering significant environmental harm.

That said, I wanted to point out that the EIA states in bold print that there will not be on-site septic systems (or soak pits or whatever the terminology is you use there). I am wondering if this approach has changed based on some of the comments here. Have they changed their initial plans of having centralized water and wastewater services? If so, a new EIA is needed to assess the impact of this significant departure from the original plan.

[papanasty]

if what i am reading is TRUE and not just allagations then there should be something done about the EIA accessment originaly wrote so at least the work being done on the project coincides with the EIA report.I have to admit i have been enlightened with what i have read,I am still for the development but am gravely concerned with what i have been told :mad:

[visitortime]

With all due respect may I ask why you are "for the development" ? Honestly I believe that by having a frank conversation about this issue is a great way to learn and in turn make informed decisions. I am very well versed in the issues surrounding this project and have a very firm opinion about the developers, their environmental stewardship, their integrity and ethics, their business practices, and their effect on the surrounding community. I still feel that it is important to listen to those who may not share my opinion. If there is any information regarding the issues that you would like to ask of me I would be more than honored to respond, in turn I ask of you to explain what makes you "for the devlopment". Thanks.

[papanasty]

I have always been one for progress, it is good for the economy as it creates jobs and keeps people out of poverty,i admit i am disturbed on some of the issues you brought up today because with todays technology there is no reason to side track proper procedure,I just hope your accusations are truthfull especially about the dumping of the fuel that makes my blood boil.I believe in the long term things will balance out,I do not think the development will come to its full completion based on some of the issues you touhed on today there are a lot of valid objections some that i agree on also,I do believe it will become a sustainable development that will create jobs for locals, contractors,hotel staff,marina dock masters,bar and resturaunt staff etc.When i came here 18 years ago i was only going to be here for about 4 weeks to complete one of the inter island freight barges for carib freight I never left.Monty Albury who started Sea Spray Marina and resort needed a channel dug from the main existing channel that Moody had dug years before me going to the Abaco Inn and Monty had bought a suction dredge to do the dredgeing required to build his marina but had no idea how to operate it.I happened to be in the dredging buisness in the 80's and I new what and how to accomplish what Monty wanted to do.I ended up staying on Elbow Cay and dredging the 3000 ft. channel and the marina basin for Sea Spray Resort.At that time the same rederick was expressed about what Monty wanted to do,The dredging was going to kill all the turtles and kill all the fish,people actually thought that they would get sucked up in the dredging process NOT.Any way the channel got completed the marina got built and to this day I see no damage done by dredging that channel to Sea Spray it opened up that south end of the island and made it attractive for further development.And today Elbow Cay has 0 unemployment,we have the best paved roads that any out island could ask for. Everyone on the island i believe makes a good liveing because of the development that has accured over the last 18 years.We do not have to worry about what are children are going to do to make ends meet,they will be able to make a decent liveing if they choose to stay. There has been a large spin off in employment opurtunities because of our growth in our economy.As progress moves along at the Baker Bay Development you will see the employment rate go up for Bahamians the quality of life will go up for Bahamians the people in Guana and Marsh Harbor as Guana will not be able to supply the labor force that will eventualy be needed to operate and run the development.Mistakes will be made but i believe the end result will be positive.Every development that is done weather it be in the Bahamas or the US or somewere else there is going to be a opposition to what is being done its human nature.Some people just do'nt like change.I admire your determination to support what you believe in and keep up the fight.can you tell me why the dredging company quite as you stated in one of your earlier posts?;)

[visitortime]

Yes, the fuel dump is true and documented. I saw it with my own eyes and so did quite a few other people. Scary part is that you can pretty much count on the fact that there were more than just one large drum of fuel left by Disney.[ Correction-should read left at the site by cruiseline/and private owners of property that cruise line leased the site from ] Since DLC dumped that one who is to say they did not dump even more?? The dredge workers (from a Great Lakes co that was hired as a sub-contractor for American Bridge) quit because they had not been paid. That is also a fact and well known on Gauna. In fact the former employees who quit now go around town in SGCR shirts. I will try to find you the picture of the spilled fuel. Guana had 100% employment before DLC's arrival. Also, the resort is intended to be all-inclusive. No need for any guest to leave and spend elsewhere. Hair Salon, gift shop, clothing, food, produce, cart rentals, bars, etc. ALL designed to keep the "guests" on the property. Another way to look at the economics of the project is to look at the inherent value of the surrounding environment. There is a very real measurable value. To alter that value by severely altering the island, culture, and environment, the DLC crew is devaluing the future inherent monetary value. AND the natural resources,culture,and community are items that once destroyed will not recover. All for the quick turn around profit of the developers. Should the entire island and region suffer for the profit of so few people? Especially people that have lied and established a pattern of secrecy and illegal business practices? If you have the experience in dredgeing you may appreciate this fact: there has been NO monitoring of turbidity levels at all at Baker's when the dredge was running. None. And, with all due respect, the dredge that you did for Sea Spray was very small compared to the huge amount that DLC was up to.
And most noticable is the greening of the seabottom with algae from the unchecked silt levels. Very visible. Take a quick ride by the site, pop on a mask and snorkel and check it out. It is fact.

[visitortime]

Let me correct myself on one point. Disney was hired by the cruise line, I can't remember what the name of the line was..other people who read this forum will remember, to provide the entertainment on the ship. Many people make the same mistake i just did by referring to that past time as when Disney "was there". That is not specific enough. In fact the cruise line changed over to Universal studios when Disney's contract ran out and they left to do their own boat and cruise ship stop on what was once Gorda Cay but is now called Castaway Cay.DLC is constantly referring to some magical cleanup that they would conduct on the site before beginning their project. The fuel dump is a great example of DLC's actual approach to environmental stewardship.
I am editing my above post to correct also.

[patw]

It was Premier Cruise Lines. The boat was the Majestic, one of the Big Red boats. They called the crusie to Bakers Bay the Abacodabra Cruise. I had a friend who went on that cruise. When the tender took them to MOW, as they passed Guana Cay, they were told it was an uninhabited island. Of course, my friend knew better.
On the maiden cruise, a Bahamian couple took the cruise. As they passed Guana Cay, the same announcement was made as they passed Guana Cay. Of course they corrected the person who made the announcement. The only time that tourist from the boat came to Guana Cay settlement is if they walked to beach and suddenly found that people did live on the island. This was told to me by a local on Guana Cay.

[visitortime]

Unfortunately for DLC the person who came across the spill was a trained and liscensed first reponder to hazmat cleanup. He has extensive experience with all types of environmental hazards and knew immediately what he had come across on what was supposed to be a nice walk on the beach at Baker's. Something his family had done for years. It was immediately reported to Troy and SGCR. They notified all appropriate authorities including the attorney, Fred Smith, and the issue is part of the official court transcripts . I will post the picture for anyone who is interested. I am at work right now and cannot do it until I am done. Now, in anticipation of Papa's next question let me say this..there was absolutely nothing done by the govt at that time in response to the irrefutable evidence provided. Surprised? Disgusted? Well, don't be. That administration is the same one that allowed these developers to operate without permits and leases, monitoring or full disclosure. I will try to post asap the photo.

[visitortime]

I have sent the pics to Pat W. I cannot figure out how to put them on here. Hopefully Pat will have a minute to post them.

[papanasty]

yes please provide me with the photo and the location of the 8000 + gallon diesel fuel dumping and any other photos or verified by experts illegal dumping of this sort,i have to admit that this baffles my mind a concentrated spill like that i know i would be able to smell for miles.Deisel is one of the hardest chemicals there is to dump or bury and not know that it has been done.The Harbor Lodge years ago and i mean a long time ago had a fuel station at the bottom of the hill with above ground fuel tanks and obiously over time they leaked.they have since been removed for years now but i can walk around that area and you can still smell the deisel just from what leaked from the tanks over the years. And that much 8000 gallons + of fuel if some how ignited could be catastrophic. Seems to me that Enviormental Health would be there in a heart beat if they new about that? :eek: Thanks Papa

[patw]

Here you go.

[papanasty]

I'm sorry boys your going to have to come up with alot more evidence than what i'm looking at like verified soil samples and core sample to substantiate the degree of soil saturation and contamination and the composition of the product that was actualy emptied out there.fuel deisel has a very distintive color to it when spilled and around were the container was drained the sand is'nt even discolored.They say a picture is worth a thousand words and i think you used them all on these pictures.As the old lady said during the first Bush campain said WERES THE BEEF:confused:

[visitortime]

First of all the photos and report are part of an OFFICIAL transcript that is filed with the court in the Bahamas. It is a legally recognized document that is part and parcel of the case..whether that is satisfactory to you or not. SGCR asked immediately for core samples and govt intervention and they were immediately BLOCKED any access to the site by DLC. The day after the incident the property was blocked to any locals. Signs went up restricting access and warning tresspassers and a guard shack was erected. The pictures were taken on April 12th 2004 on the very first day that the machines began cutting in rough roads. The gentleman who saw the spill first was drawn to it by the smell.A smell that I would guess he is extremely familiar with as he is a certified full spill responder. If you are interested in the oficial transcripts than please feel free to request them in an official capacity from the appropriate legal persons. The incident was recorded properly in a legal affadavit also by Troy Albury. I do not have the official transcripts but as they are a recognized part of this ongoing litigation I am sure that they are available. I must say that I am surprised that you were not aware of this incident. Especially since you express such a high level of interest now. The governmet did absolutely nothing to investigate. They completely ignored the incident. As is par for this case SGCR was left on it's own to show the court the photos, the affadavit, and the lack of response by proper officials. When the people who are supposed to enforce the regulations(of which there are NO environmental laws in the Bahmas) will not even address the issue please tell me where else are victims to turn?? You want to know where the beef is???? Here's the beef:Go find Troy or any other member of SGCR that saw that overturned storage drum and ask them what they saw. Look in the eyes of honest people and see if you think they are lying. Ask yourself why anybody would give up so much time and effort and lose many dollars financially trying to expose these issues...do you think Troy and SGCR just had some extra time on their hands and said "hey, let's go bankrupt trying to protect something that we see being ruined with absolutely no financial gain for ourselves at all..in fact it will all be risk and hard work and all we can base it on is truth and research and fact even though we are being treated like we don't exist by a government that allows this all to happen...." Here's a news flash : they are doing it because it's the right thing to do. Did DLC deny dumping the barrel??? NO! Geez, you didn't expect that one huh? Mr Joey Arenson said it was water!!! On a radio show..Jones and Co on Love 97. As Arenson was trying to pass that fallacy Livingstone Marshall was saying..also on the air!..that no drums ever existed!!! They couldn't even get their own story straight! That show may be archived. You could call Jones and ask.
So, you have the photos, there are affadavits. court transcripts, and on air discussion of the issue and the personal invitation to ask SGCR members in person. If that is not enough "evidence" for you than so be it. As somebody who seems to be coming late to this issue I can only say that it is a shame you did not become involved a long long time ago. Then, these questions of yours may have been in a more timely fashion and documents etc would have been eaiser to retrieve. Now, you will have to do the requesting yourself to the attorneys etc. And I highly encourage you to learn more about the entire case. It is VERY involved and very important. And if you could share what has prompted your late interest in an issue that has been occuring for over three plus years next to your home island that would be terriffic.

[papanasty]

If in fact your pictures and findings are true then what is in the ground at that location will still be there,that quantity and what you claim is deisel fuel would still be there and i am going to take your advise and see for my self the site in question. I apoligize for not takeing a interest in the your concern earlier,but i just started to take a interest in what i was reading because the allagations seem to be very serious and happen to intrege me,I have had my dealings over the years for far less situations and government came down on me like white on rice.It just does not make any sence to me that government entitys would not investigate such alleged atrocites I would think enviormental health would respond to something as serious as what your telling me immediately.I am not trying to offend you or any one else.I just want to know the TRUE facts and with over 30 years of dealing with waste and dredgeng and development your pictures that you posted have not convinced me. If that spill is as close to the water as you state there should be evidence of a sheen on top of the water all the time because with the tide going up and down that much fuel would leach in to the water table and make its way to the sea .it only takes a drop of fuel on water to make it look like 100 gallons was spilled and if this location of the spill is as close to the water as you claim there should be evidence of the spill and honestly the pictures do not show that.I promise you ,I will go to the development and insist that as a concerned citizen respectfully request to see the allagations in question. Respectfully Papanasty

[Moderator6]

Ok, you guys have been doing pretty good so far at keeping this thread civil! We appreciate that very much. This can be a HOT subject so lets keep it just below "simmer". Thanks! Carry on!

[visitortime]

that would be terriffic. If you can get an answer from the developers it will be the first ever. If you can get a govt agency or representative to actually respond to this issue that would be like Christmas Day in June. Two things to consider: 1. The govt will probably tell you that the incident was three years ago and no longer an issue (their opinion) or that there is no system at all in the Bahamas for taking core samples nor any equipment in the Bahmas for testing core samples. Both true. Both scary. 2. Have you seen the equipment that has been running down there? The developers knew exactly what they had done and that they were "caught' Immediately,let me state again, the DLC crew blocked ALL access to the site. How long do you think it took them to dig up that area and move the fill/soil once the incident was reported? How fast will they blame it on Premier if it is actually sampled tested and found??? I hope you do follow through with this. It may give you an insight into what SGCr has been facing for a long long time. Please let us know.
If you can find out anything it would be really great. Good luck.

[visitortime]

Moderator 6 and all who view this thread: I think it's great that papa n is asking these questions and is interested. There is no animosity at all. To those of us that have dealt with this destruction since day one it has become sad irony. In the end there will always be an excuse by DLC and the fact that SGCR was ignored on this and many other issues. Since Papa has become interested recently it is only fair to warn him and otheres that Discovery Land Company does not like discovery. They should just shorten their name to Land Company. Papa and all, read on SGCR board the actual court filings concerning DLC's REFUSAL to provide discovery. If they were operating legally and had nothing to hide they would be passing out copies of permits and leases like cheap flyers in a parking lot. If they were not guilty of dumping fuel they would have left access open to the site. That's all that really needs to be said. Everyone should be asking DLC why they refuse to provide access and discovery. It's like "No, we're complying 100%..but we can't let you see it.because...ummmm we just don't feel like it"

[jersey devil]

I was the person who found the fuel spill on guana cay. I have years of experience cleaning up spills like these. The smell was definitely diesel and it was spilled recently in my opinion because when i picked up sand it had a very strong smell to it. When the spill is older it starts to perc thru the sand and the smell increases the deeper you go. This smell was right on top and the sand had a oily like feel to it. I notified a few locals and tried to find a government number to call with no luck. If i had known that the government wouldn't have done anything i would have postponed my trip home for a few days and tried to get this issue some media attention. i finally got in touch with some of the folks in sgcr and gave them the photos.At their request i signed an affadavit about this incident.Papa Nasty i know it is hard to trust others sometimes but if you were a spill responder and came across this spill there would be no doubt in your mind what happened. Also since this incident there are pictures which i have seen where dlc had a fuel tank for there equipment sitting in a field with no secondary containment and mulch chips under the hose as it leaked into the ground.Thats right mulch to stop leaking fuel from contaminating the ground.Here in the states that is criminal.Hopes this helps.

[visitortime]

when it's possible to start at least 2 dozen factual sentences about the DLC project with the phrase "lack of" it's a sign. This thread speaks directly to the most important "lack of" category: lack of full disclosure.
Add lack of consultation,lack of discovery, lack of monitoring,lack of proper implementation of silt curtains,lack of permits,lack of legal possession of Crown Land because of lack of lease,lack of proper spill containment preparedness, lack of access, lack of proper biohazard storage, lack of waste management facility as promised, lack of jobs made avilable with administration or high level positions for Bahamians, lack of respect for local population,lack of communication of which Livingstone Marshall's absolute refusal to answer numerous requests for copies of any monitoring data done of water quality, lack of turbidity monitoring, lack of recognition that sea turtle nests cannot withstand the DAILY raking of the entire beach and the CONSTANT driving on the beach by equipment,carts,and heavy duty DLC vehicles, lack of valid tags on DLC carts until the recent administration change, lack of control when a DLC employee drunkenly drove his vehicle into a local business' wall and left the scene, lack of pay for workers, lack of explanation for employing at a high salary an American that has no special training in a position easily filled by any number of local Bahamians, lack of respect.
That's it. I have to stop. The list could legitimately go on for hours....it's that bad. I hope it allows you to really appreciate the incredible amount of dedication and time that SGCR has demonstrated.
Here's a list about SGCR: Full Disclosure. Period. End of story.

[Willy Landham]

Since the fuel spill was recent was it possible to estimate the volume of fuel that had been spilled?

Would you catagorize it as:

A) A gallon or less.
B) Tens of gallons.
C) Hundreds of gallons.
D) Thousands of gallons.

[papanasty]

Quote from previous post 8000 + gallons thats a tanker load that you see on the high way delivering fuel to gas stations I believe by Visitortime:cool:

[Willy Landham]

I wanted to hear the expert assessment as to how much fuel was estimated to have been spilled (not how much the tank can hold). It sounds like the area had been discovered not too long after the spill had occurred. My assumption was that some sort of an educated guess could be made based upon basic observations (like how wide of an area appeared to be covered/contaminated).

[jersey devil]

The 8000 gallon figure came from my estimate of tank size and not the volume of the spill.I can only guess at the amount spilled but it looked fairly sizeable. I don't know if the spill was 1 day or 3 weeks old but you could see the staining of the ground and smell it from a good way off. If i had to guess i would say 300 to 500 gallons.What i would guess happened is the tank was left there with fuel in it below the standpipe and when it was found by dlc instead of handling it properly they opened up the inspection hatch and just dumped it. As for marshall saying it was water,try to tell the epa in the states that the diesel fuel tank that is upside down on your property was full of water and you would end up in jail and fined almost instantly.

[papanasty]

No look at post #113 it says that 8000 plus gallons of old deisel was spilled and that it was reported documented and photgraphed by a expert,then in another post it says that before any officals could get access to the reported spill site it had been cleaned up and buried some place else on the developments property but know one knows were.Do you have any idea what it would take to clean up a spill of that size?That 8000 gallons is equal to the size of a bulk tanker that delivers fuel to gas stations in the states. the tank in the photo is'nt even that big,and look closely at the first photo the sand is as white as snow were what ever came out of it spilled,there could not have been fuel in that tank based on what i see in the photo no.1.And if it was old deisel as it states the old fuel will actually turn almost brown from age so in my opinion the photos do not coincide with the claim. I am baseing my determination by what i see pure and simple,if i'm missing something here please enlighten me. :cool:

[jersey devil]

This is why i didn't want to post on here. Everyone is an internet expert so believe what you think you see but i will still have the knowledge of what i saw with my own two eyes. With your inability to grasp the obvious facts about what dlc is doing to guana maybe a government job is in your future

[visitortime]

It is a tank with a capacity for 8,000 gallons. I most certainly did not say that they had buried it elsewhere..I clearly speculated that that could be a possibility. The sand looks discolored to me. The site was photographed by the witness and he did document the incident. If there is a container that carries a certain amount of liquid inside and it is found overturned what do you suggest is the best course of action for a responder?? Should they assume that it was only partially full? Assume that it was a small amount?? When an EMT finds an empty container of a dangerous substance near a patient do they assume the patient only had a little of the substance? Or is the safest assumption to treat as if it was full? With your "many years of experience" in waste management I would have assumed that you would be familiar with response protocol. Also, the gentleman that witnessed the spill first noticed the spill first by the strong odor. Can you explain that? Was he imagining things and after imagining a smell he followed it to an actual overturned container? That would be quite a coincidence.

[papanasty]

So your evaluation is based purely on speculation if the tank was there it must have been full and it must have been full of deisel not a few gallons of deisel and some water because you smell deisel it had to be only deisel.I have a 5000 gallon tank that i use for my cement plant if it was full and i drained it completely and then dumped a gallon of deisel on the ground were the water ran out would you consider that i spilled 5000 gallons of deisel on the ground because you could smell deisel or would you believe that only a gallon was spilled if that was what i actually did and that was what i told you happened? hypatheticaly

[visitortime]

you tell me..what would be the safest assumption? What approach is advised? How about if you add to the mix the fact that the property is made off limits? Why did they do that? Because they were not trying to hide anything? It just doesn't jive.
Unfortunately there are many more issues of poor environmental stewardship by Land Company. I could only wish that there weren't as that would free up alot of our time and we would be able to discuss this till the cows came home. There was nothing hypothetical about the issue. Should an investigating agency take the word of the suspect or have you considered that the correct action is to actually investigate? If a man is standing next to a VERY Large container that is designed to hold a potential hazard and you can smell the odor of the substance and the man says " Yeah I know it's a large container but I only spilled a little but I'm not going to let you see." would you say, "Oh, O.k...no problem, I'll take your word for it?"
If your answer is "yes" than I do not believe that this conversation has any value. Full disclosure on the part of the developers would have prevented many problems. DLC refuses any disclosure...on anything...Isn't the biggest question "WHY?"

[Willy Landham]

..and remember: the developers began their campaign of environmental mismanagement by dumping DIRECTLY into the sand about ten feet from the waters edge the 8,000 plus gallons of old fuel left buried in a large storage tank by Disney. Cost effective for DLC...a lesson for the residents that will not be swept under the rug. How many more did they dump??? What a great way to save money...don't put them on a barge to be disposed of properly elsewhere...no, just uncap, dump out, and hope nobody sees you..

And the expert wrote:

"The 8000 gallon figure came from my estimate of tank size and not the volume of the spill.I can only guess at the amount spilled but it looked fairly sizeable. I don't know if the spill was 1 day or 3 weeks old but you could see the staining of the ground and smell it from a good way off. If i had to guess i would say 300 to 500 gallons.What i would guess happened is the tank was left there with fuel in it below the standpipe and when it was found by dlc instead of handling it properly they opened up the inspection hatch and just dumped it. As for marshall saying it was water,try to tell the epa in the states that the diesel fuel tank that is upside down on your property was full of water and you would end up in jail and fined almost instantly."


Visitortime,
At best the very best... you are not as informed as you say and at the very least... your credibility is questionable regardless of how honorable your motives.

[SamFamAustin]

Fuel tanks come in all different sizes and of course each is filled to a certain level and is either (1) over-filled, (2) filled to 95-98% proper capacity (to allow for fuel expansion), or something less. I have helped do the planning for 10,000, 8,000, 5,000, and 2,500 gallon tanks commonly used for construction purposes. Each should have a concrete floor and walls with gravel or a plastic coated berm, which works equally as well but has a bigger footprint.

Sometimes accidents happen and sometimes the best practice is to burn the spilled fuel before it can sink into the ground or flow overland into recieving waters. This should always be done by certified fire fighting crews and not some yahoe with a match and a few tires and rags.

I don't know about this incident but most fuel spills (>95% in the US) are less than 100 gallons unless something catastropic happened. Anything more than 10 gallons is not major but is significant, so in the latter case I would have called the fire department for sure. We can talk about environmental impacts later but that fuel is highly inflammible and perhaps even explosive if the tank blows - and is a major public health risk as a result. Containment, confinement, and disposal are three stages of emergency fuel spill response, although I certainly am no pro on that.

Now lets say a little, like a bit more than 10 gallons seeped into the sand, coral, and limestone. My understanding is as a karstic limestone reef which has pretty good soil permeability - in other words the diesel or whatever could sink in pretty deep pretty fast but that depends on your local rocks and subsurface stuff. That way, it could even end up in one or more of them "blue holes" ya got out there and will never ever known but as least fairly diluted when it comes out.

Remember it only takes one quart of motor oil to kill all the mosquitoes on an acre of a farm pond. Remember that a whole bunch of diesel will evaporate and create a highly flammible plume just ready for a spark and it could create a fireball. Thank goodness that didn't seem to happen.

Really, I have no local knowledge of the incident in question but I can say having an emergency spill response program would be a great start in the right direction, lacking one. Tink like a fireman, mon. What's fire rescue say?
/sammie

p.s. to an earlier poster, some unscrupulous diesel equipment operators - and I'm not saying anything about this DLC outfit - will change hydraulic or motor oil lube and their capture systems are pretty crude at best. This is like 2-5 gallons a shot. A few gallons could also be attiributed to changing fuel oil filters, since you got a bucket of filter and diesel and then the fuel line must be bleeded to get all the air out - and it can get away from you there for a minute. The smart diesel dudes know how to do this with a minimum of fuss, mess, and even getting very dirty (unlike me). Most of these guys - ain't met a diesel chick yet - are like perfectionists. Papa N, that make any sense to you?

[papanasty]

I care deeply about this country More than i do my home land the US.This is truly gods land and we all need to work together to keep it as close to what we want it to be.It is our children that we need to strive to give them a better life better than the one we have.There has to be a respectable balance of progress to ensure that our children can hopefully live a better life, And with the estimated population growth expected your statistics,if our economy does not grow with us our children will be doomed.At this point you have assured that the powers at be will decide the fate of what happens to the north end of Great Guana Cay. what ever the outcome i personally will empower with grace what ever side succeeds. I love a good debate and you have given me a formatible one.I will continue to follow your cause and the cause of DLC I will definitly take the time to tour the ongoing development in the near future and i am sure we will be talking about this again until then i will close with my opinions until i can become more informed on the details of this subject,I respect all responses that i have gotten and hold no anomosity towards anyone that has contributed to there rants views and opinions on this post as Paul Harvey would say AND THATS THE WAY IT IS GOOD DAY:)

[visitortime]

What's your best guess on why they refuse discovery and access?
If you had nothing to hide and were actually doing what you claimed would you be afraid to have someone check it out? What could be the reason? Are they ashamed of poor penmanship? Are the documents in Farsi and they are trying to save us the cost of a translator? Are they on a tight budget and can't afford paper for copies? Did they accidentally misplace everything and need time to find it? Did their dog eat it?

How about the access and monitoring issue? Their "scientist" claimed originally that the data collected would be used for educational purposes..albeit for a University that had NO IDEA she was doing it. So, how much can be learned by invisible data?? Is it written in invisible ink?? Is there a special pen needed to make the writing appear? Invisible data that was collected under the guise of sharing with a University that had no idea it was being used to market the project that eventually felt it necessary to go a step further and write a document from the General Counsel of the University demanding that this "scientist cease and desist immediately" Hmmmmmmmmm I'm done with this. Thank you, really, for hanging in there. Just try one thing..try to come up with a valid reason for why there is no discovery,disclosure or access. Have a good night and thank you for your interest.:cool:

[visitortime]

Let's hope more and more people will ask questions. It can only be a good thing. The Paul Harvey closure is a gem. Thanks again!

[jersey devil]

I agree with papa nasty. I know what i saw and will not debate it further unless asked by the proper agency in the Bahamas investigating this incident.thank you and goodnight.:)

[visitortime]

Hopefully there will be the creation of a sound set of environmental laws as a result of SGCR's illumination of this important issue. Thanks to their hard work it is no longer possible to travel to any island in the Bahamas where people are not aware of environmental issues. Some for the very first time. It is heartening and rewarding.
The Bahamas needs and desrves to be protected and understood for the fragile and priceless treasure that it is. It is a fragile ecosystem. An ecosystem that reacts to the most minute amount of stress or change. It's monetary value is immeasurable. Open and frank discussion of the concerns are incredibly necessary and often overlooked or avoided. We all need to thank The Forum for allowing this experience. If we were only allowed to use pleasant and non-offensive terms it would be almost comical. It's quite impossible to speak about a really alarming issue using only Hallmark cardlike terms.;) Thank you Abaco Forum . You are a beacon in the dark when it comes to free speech and public sharing and discussion. You rock.:p

[dive guana]

I was one of the persons who saw the container and smelt the smell and I also took some photos. Not sure if these ar mine or not. I am not sure of the amount of the spill either but all must agree this was not the most environmentally way to dispose of it . Whether it was 10 gallon or 500 gallons this was not the way to do it. I am positive there was a diesel smell and you can clearly see that it was drained from the tank onto the ground

Another point that tank was in the ground contained in a concrete retaining bin three feet deep in the ground and was there for a number of years. . If it was only water why have it installed in a retaining concrte enclosure in the ground ?? Heavy equipment was brought to the scene , took the container out of the retaining concrete enclosure , removed an inspection hatch and flipped it over to drain on the ground. Surely there could have been a more environmentally way to dispose of the contents. If they had all the equipment to do the above they could most certainly have done it another way. Thsi is pretty old news now and although this was reported no one ever investigated it. Sadly the site where the tank was drained has been covered in a 100 foot pile of dredge material so we may never know

This is small potatos compared to the rest of their environmental destruction that we can clearly see and probably other infractions that we cannot see because they have refused access to the site

Troy
Dive Guana

[Willy Landham]

What's your best guess on why they refuse discovery and access?

...Thank you, really, for hanging in there. Just try one thing..try to come up with a valid reason for why there is no discovery,disclosure or access. Have a good night and thank you for your interest.:cool:

That's actually quite easy. They don't trust you. If you are going to make unsubstantiated claims (8000+ gallons of fuel intentionally dumped) then it's not too big of a stretch for them to believe that you will pull some stunt at the site and blame them. Now that's just speculation but apparently that's fair game. And you have a good day!

WL

PS And not to pick nits but... that was Walter Cronkite, not Paul Harvey.

[visitortime]

Oh, you are absolutely right...It was all too easy to secretly carry a fuel container of that size on my back onto the property and to arrange for an independent individual familiar with spill cleanup to stumble across it. For my next stunt I am going to swim down at night and dredge a huge hole with a garden hose and stir up alot of silt....or maybe take some garden clippers and cut down all the mangroves. Meanwhile innocent DLC with it's constant security presence won't see a thing. Gotta go now...I'm late for stunt school...today we are learning how to make false vehicle tracks over turtle nests...have a good one yourself also!

[SamFamAustin]

Ah, werry good point. Let's assume that is their land, speaking of Bakers Bay and DLC - although that is a question in itself. The public is allowed access to the edge of the property and the mean high water level in the navigable waters. Everything that flows off "their" land is known as off-property impacts.

Historically, some of the first environmental laws were known as "fenceline" monitoring, based on the common law principle that a property owner could not infringe on the enyoyment of abutting lands or waters. Thus if smoke or fouled waters flowed from one property into another's, the second property owner could file a lawsuit against the first. It was not until fairly recently that environmental laws controlled private lands within a persons control; one could blow it up, burn it down, dig a pit a hundred feet deep, or fill it with poison was long as the activity did not affect the abutting private lands or lands held in the public trust.

Taken together with the notion that a court order is required to enter private property, you can see why it is a touchy subject. /sammie

[SamFamAustin]

P.S., if there is a "historical easement" on the lands held by Baker's Bay / DLC, one could make a case that a dedicated public easement is required to allow for ingress and egress, although I am not sure of the specifics in this matter.

[Charlotte Couple]

I don't know why I'm jumping into this, but here goes...

First off, I hate what DLC is doing at Bakers Bay, and I harbor no illusions that they are good stewards of the environment. However, their opponents need to be careful not to throw out harsh accusations that are based on speculation. In this case, the outcry should be for a government investigation and full disclosure by DLC, but accusing them of "dumping 8000-plus gallons of diesel fuel directly on the beach" could backfire on an otherwise well-balanced effort by SGCR. If it can be shown that the spill was, say 25 gallons, and occurred as the tank was being flushed with water, then it could cause the validity of other allegations by SGCR to be questioned.

Again, I side with SGCR on this project, but urge everyone not to get carried away with sensational accusations without better proof than you have here. Fine to question what happened, but don't throw out lines like the one quoted above. Stuff like that just reinforces DLC's desire for secrecy.

That's my first and last post on this one.

[visitortime]

I respectfully disagree. Finding and exposing the overturned fuel container..that very well may have full when dumped..is what fuels DLC's desire for secrecy. Talking about what happened takes the "secret" right out of it.
Perhaps you are blaming me for what is a sensational issue/post..but isn't the fact that the container was laying on it's side purposely dumped the REAL sensation?? It's a horrible thing. One drop is too much. That is the real issue. That is the inflammatory catalyst..NOT the people talking about it. If you desire try googling fuel storage companies and see for yourself the capacity of that particular tank..then ask the suppliers how many customers purchase 8,000 gallon vessels to store 25 gallons.;)
This is my last post on this one to. All the legal papers and documentation are filed with the court. Like it or not that's the way it is.

[JJ]

I am an environmental engineer but I am not at all involved in fuel spills and contamination. I work in water supply and wastewater reuse and disposal. I got interested in the water supply and wastewater aspects of the project because I know what a challenge it would be to serve the water supply and wastewater needs of such a development on this small cay. I was given a half dozen different answers to questions, few of which matched what was in the EIA. I don't know whether the information provided in the EIA has been changed or if facts are getting distorted, so I am backing down. I do believe from what I have read that this development is too much for Guana Cay and I side with those trying to save the cay; however, I think your battle is best served by sticking to facts you personally know to be true (or can provide reference to) and not distorting or sensationalizing the facts.

We already can see how one person's statement that a tank estimated to be 8,000 gallons in size was turned on its side with some unknown quantity of a substance smelling like fuel spilling on the ground has been embellished by another to become a documented 8,000 gallon diesel fuel spill. I agree that it appears that there has been some wrongdoing on the developers part here, but I cannot separate facts from enhanced facts at this time. Embellishing and sensationalizing the story, whether intentional or just an innocent misinterpretation, hurts rather than helps your worthy cause.

[jersey devil]

Again here we go with internet experts. Charlotte Couple could you tell me the purpose of washing out a diesel storage tank?? It just isn't done that way in the real world.There are companys that do this for a living and procedures that USUALLY are followed.Dumping onto the ground is NEVER an option.Again as said earlier even 1 gallon is to much.Kind of shows what kind of enviromental stewards dlc will be.Now i am off to find the other pics that i was shown of their tank dripping fuel onto the ground.If anyone has these pics please post them. Thanks

[visitortime]

tank is spilled. tank has potential to hold 8,000 gallons. DLC closes ramks and will not permit further investigation. It may be easier for people to imagine that it was only a small amount but with DLC's refusal to allow access that is impossible to determine. DLC is the one leaving the door open to interpretation. With no cooperation on the part of the accused at the time of the incident people are not out of line by speculating up to a total of....drum roll please....8,000 gallons.
Not one thing was embellished. The documents filed state quite clearly that it was an overturned container with a carrying capacity of 8,000 gallons.
Hey, anybody realize that the bottom line is that some of you are willing to say " just give them the benefit of the doubt"...with no focus on the fact that under the watch of DLC they uncapped a tank and spilled it directly into the ground????????
I guess there are different levels of toxic spill that some are comfortable with. I for one am not comfortable with any company that intentionally drains ANY AMOUNT from a fuel tank into the ground.
DLC did it. They chose to do it. They were caught. Catching them prompted an all out lockdown of the site...not an invitation to clear their name. DLC uncapped, rolled over and drained it right into the ground.
Work is calling. If anybody at all can share why it is ok for DLC to do that I would be glad to listen. In fact, if anyone can come up with any valid reason for ANY company ANYWHERE to do that it would be even better. I was prompted to post again in this thread because i am astounded at those who would say that the amount may be of little consequence and skip over the fact that had that gentleman not been walking the beach that day nobody would have ever known.
Have a good day.:eek:

[Charlotte Couple]

Clarification:

I did not say or imply that a lesser amount of diesel fuel is acceptable. It isn't, nor is any flushing process I described hypothetically. That was merely an alternate scenario that would have a much smaller effect, though still unacceptable, than your assertion (presented as fact, not supposition in your original post) that they intentionally dumped 8000+ gallons directly on the beach. We're on the same side here, but I don't agree with making public accusations that could be blowing the actual event out of proportion. Just publish the photos and what the eyewitnesses actually saw, and call for an investigation.

[JJ]

visitortime - I don't think anyone is disagreeing that things don't smell right in this situation. What we are remarking on is your statement (and this is a direct cut and paste from your earlier post): "...the developers began their campaign of environmental mismanagement by dumping DIRECTLY into the sand about ten feet from the waters edge the 8,000 plus gallons of old fuel left buried in a large storage tank by Disney." This is an exaggeration/embellishment that will hurt rather than help your cause and I am all for helping your cause.

[visitortime]

Geez...one more thing..please remember that SGCR asked over and over for an investigation. They said please prove us wrong. Investigate. Find out the facts. Nobody answered and DLC refused.
Had they been willing to comply they could have proven their side. Do you really think SGCR preferred to keep the amount as a possible 8,000 gallons??? Especially when they are fighting so hard to save the environment?? SGCR wanted DLC and the government to assess the spill and make an educated evaluation. SGCR would have liked nothing better than to wipe away their worst nightmare which was the possibility of 8,000 gallons of fuel being spilled into the very ground they were trying to protect.
If you were DLC and you felt that you were wrongly accused what would you have done? Well, DLC chose to refuse access and full disclosure.
DLC..or as I now prefer to call them Land Company (since they really don't like discovery) made their bed. They have to sleep in it.
Anytime anywhere you have an empty container at a fuel spill you must assume that it is possible that the container was full. That is why open disclosure is so important. There is no room for grey areas. That is protocol. It is what is proper, recommended, and advised. Responders are given NO CHOICE but to work from the notion that it was full when the offender refuses to cooperate and the government refuses to even consider the event.
Sad but true. And not a personal opinion either but an approach that is mandated for safety.
Maybe the detractors or those who claim that the issue was "embelished" should focus their energy on asking DLC about the issue...and while they are at it they could ask for copies of monitoring data, permits and leases. Now I am really done and probably way behind on my workday.
Thanks to all who have gone back and forth with me. Keep in mind that it is always welcome as a refreshing change from the complete refusal by DLC to discuss anything openly. It's a good thing. Oh man, did I just quote Martha??

[visitortime]

And I will gladly correct my statement quoted two above: dumping -the possibility of 8,000 gallons. Absolutely no way to prove otherwise.

[SamFamAustin]

Now let's play fair in the sand-box, folks. Sure, we have loads of conjecture here and the only precise way to measure a fuel tank leak or discharge is to use a calibrated dip-stick before and after. Thus even the locals "in the know" really don't have any good numbers.

Sure, tank cleaning is done all the time, although water is never a good idea; methanol used to be used but today inert emulsifiers are used. There is always a residual "bottoms" in any petrol tank that contains water, sludge, algae, sand, rust, and other stuff. This is known as the "heel" of the tank.

As an aside, that's why one should never buy fuel right after loading from a fuel truck or barge, since the heel gets mixed up in the petrol and must wait an hour or two to resettle down to the bottoms.

Could it be that an old diesel #2 fuel tank was mothballed and cast off to the side because it didn't work so good anymore, and it contained a certain amount of bottoms? At about 3-4-5 bucks a gallon I'm sure there was no intention to drain perfectly good fuel because that would be a lot of wasted money - like over $20,000 for a full 8,000 tank.

If you can get a sample there is a very simple test to see if it is off-road diesel, which is known as "Red Dye." If it is dyed red, it is Diesel #2 untaxed, not meant for highway motor vehicles. If it is clear it could be highway Diesel #2. These regulations work in the US, Canada, Britain, and I would suppose the Bahamas. If it is ***** brown it is slops or bottoms.
sammie

[papanasty]

here we go again and this is purely hypathetical i want to make this point,that tank has been there for a long time since disney put it there,i for one being in the construction buisness and the price of fuel even back then and new that there was 8000 gallons of fuel on the island that basicaly belonged to nobody anymore because disney obviously abandoned it and i owned equipment that uses deisel fuel,you can bet your A** that there would not be a gallon of fuel left in that tank,I'm not a thief but as hard and expensive as fuel is in the islands and obvoiusly people new that the fuel was there i'm assumeing, and with all the generators and equipment on the island over so many years why would'nt people help there selves to it i can almost gaurantee there probably was no fuel or very little left in that tank.If i had lived there and new that that much fuel was there for that many years for the taken i for one would have taken as much as i could have used. because all it was going to do was go bad,better to be used than wasted.:confused:

[papanasty]

Hey Sam looks like you have been around the block and seem through your interpatation of what you consider a serious spill and how the real wourld deals with a simple oil change on a piece of equipment is very accurate! Now Troy again i admire your determination in your cause.You have obviously taken this fight very personnel.But be realistic you have dive boats and they have deisel engines in them and hydralic transmissions and unless you have spent thousands upon thousands of dollars on your dive boats to ensure irreputably that you have never in your life in the buisness that you are in that your dive boats have never expelled a drop of oil from your bilge in to the sea it would be a first in the history of sea going vessels.Are you as hard on your self when and if this has ever happened? Some of these issues concerning things like fuel spills,turbidity,full disclosure I am going to touch on the subject turbidity later in detail,i feel because this word comes up alot it should be well addressed accurately so everyone knows the exact meaning of the word and what the affects of turbidity is thats all for now though will be back later tonight :) Papa

[SamFamAustin]

LOL, Papa I appreciate the left-handed compliment! I helped my dad run a snapper/grouper boat out of the Tampa area and that ole Detroit 6V-71 just wasn't working right unless it was dribbling crankcase oil into the bilge, maybe a cup idling or a pint a day while running hard. Over it went with the bilge pump ... but in my opinion that wasn't all that bad because we weren't in the marina, we were like 20-80 miles offshore. The stuff evaporates and mixes.

Nope, that head (commode to you lubbers) was real bad because there was no holding tank and them old commercial boats. Nowaday most the yachts have holding tanks and they need pumping out, so some enterprising folks figured out you could put a "Y" valve in there so the graywater would go overboard and the "alley apples" would stay in the holding tank. Bad idea, because no matter what, you got bacteria such as E. Coli growing in the marinas and reefs as a result. It can get in the conch especially easy.

More recently, some harbours ports have become "No Discharge" areas and have free pump-out boats (please tip 'em) and if they see graywater going overboard because of a Y-valve, your could get a rather serious fine. Funny you should bring up the boaters versus an old rusty Disneyworld fuel tank. It makes sense to me though. /sammie

p.s., the largest marine pollution fines were set against three cruise liner companies operating out on the US West Coast. Funny thing was, all the boats were registered in the Bahamas!

[papanasty]

Ya Sam i quess i'm just asking for FULL DISCLOSURE on the dive boats I quess whats good for the goose aut to be the same for the gander. for every complaint i'm sure i can come up with a quarry in relation of the same sort. I can be a real pain in the A**still waiting for a responce. they do'nt call me Papanasty cause of my good looks :rolleyes:

[Willy Landham]

And I will gladly correct my statement quoted two above: dumping -the possibility of 8,000 gallons. Absolutely no way to prove otherwise.

So you will be ignoring your expert's opinion on the amount of the spill that he estimated? Very telling.

I do have a question... Does Bahamian law place the burden of proof on the accuser or the accused?

[visitortime]

OK Willy, one more time: If a responder comes to a scene in which they find an overturned container with the capacity of 8,000 gallons of fuel and they smell the fuel but they did not see it spilled and the person who INTENTIONALLY dumped it will not answer any questions they are mandated to assume that the container was full unless proven otherwise. It would be IRRESPOSIBLE to assume oherwise. I corrected my post to reflect the more specific term of "possibility". There is NO OTHER COuRSE OF ACTION at that point but to assume that the container was full. If the accused was brought before a judge and fined he or she would be fined according to the maximum capacity. The accused has prevented any possibility of measurement or investigation and will be held responsible for the entire amount. It is called "cutting off your nose to spite your face". By refusing an investigation and blocking access the developers have placed themselves in a position of their own choosing. The responders must address the issue as if it was the full amount. Do you get that??????
Maybe you should talk about how you feel about a company that uncaps a container- DESIGNED FOR FUEL THAT IS HOLDING AN UNDETERMINED AMOUNT OF LIQUID THAT SMELLS STRONGLY OF FUEL- and pours it into the ground. How do you feel about that Willy?? Explain , as an engineer extraordinaire, how it could ever be OK to dump old fuel directly into the ground?
As far as Bahamian environmental law goes...if you were at all familiar with Bahamian law you would know that there ARE NO ENVIRONMENTAL LAWS!!!! Enough is enough. Think about DLC and why they did what they did. That is the important issue.

[Willy Landham]

First, please show me in anything that I have ever said here that indicates I believe that it is an acceptable practice to dispose of a hazardous substance by dumping it on the ground. If you believe that I find this practice acceptable you may apologize now.

Second, please acknowledge the fact that the expert that you make reference to says that, in his professional opinion, he believes that there was no where near 8000+ gallons of fuel spilled as you have asserted without caveat earlier in this thread. I'm sure it upsets you that you were caught in a falsehood (lie is such an ugly word). Your recent correction is far short of the mark.

Third, I made no reference to Bahamian enviromental law but to Bahamian law in general. I was curious to see if the innocent until proven guilty concept was only an American concept. But your response does require further questions. If there is no environmental law regarding the incident then what are the charges? If there is no law then what requires a judge to fine the person based upon the capacity of the empty container? These are serious questions since your statements appear to contradict themselves.

And finally, please retract your wreckless, baseless, and irresponisble inference that anywhere close to 8000 gallons of fuel was spilled. You do not know and there is expert testimony to the contrary. That is the complaint that I see with people like you that say you support SGCR however your actions do more to harm to the cause than help it. There is enough real evidence to condemn DLC for their poor environmental stewardship without making up stuff like you do. Your expert says there were a few hundred gallons spilled. That is way more than enough to say DLC screwed up without exaggerating the claim and looking like a fool for asserting otherwise when an expert contradicts you. Try sticking with the truth and the evidence at hand. That will certainly be more useful than hyperbole.

In all seriousness and in spite of much of your snottiness I do believe that your heart is in the right place. And if you would drop the attitude you would find that I don't care much for the DLC crowd myself.

[DrRalph]

Folks, please keep this civil. It's a tricky subject to wade through, and we all need to remember that if we're going to debate it here, we have to respect each other's opinions and positions.

[papanasty]

I can't help it but i got to get back in to this, First of all if this first responder you talk about has the expertise and knowledge that you claim he has it is amasing he came up with this expert opinion of the amount or volume of the spill who is he Barney fife, by looking at the photos that you have supplied in the post of the tank, the size of the indentation in the sand, the color of the sand in and around the indentation of the sand and in referance to the size of the outlet or cap that has been removed on the tank and the position of the tank were as the outlet is at about a 60 degree angle lets for general purposes say that the opening is 10" this would take about 45 minutes for this fuel to discharge it self from the tank if in fact it was full 8000 gallons as claimed. this in its capacity and rate of discharge should leave a hole in the sand large enough for someone to stand in and a trench leading to the sea about 2 ft. wide and at least 1 ft. deep because that much liquid expelling it self from that large opening will not have time to soak in to the ground it would have went straight to the sea ,there is a lot of valosity at the angle of the tank and the amount of fuel in the tank with the fuel weighing around 7.5 lbs per gallon for a total weight of 60000 lbs at the opening with a head or discharge pressure at the opening of about 30 psi with a gallon per minute discharge of 177 gallon per minute and the tank weighing in at 60000 lbs before it was moved because it is claimed that it was full it would take no less than a 40 ton crane to move it from its former location as it is alledged that it was moved from its former location to were the spill is located in the photo.I have looked closely at the photos and if in fact it was moved by other means lets say a bulldozer with it's weight in contents the tank would be all bent up scatched and deformed from the move.the pictures show no noticable indication that it was moved by a bulldozer or a very large wheel loader.these particulars on this one incident does not hold WATER Give me something substantial to change my mind its all bull****:rolleyes:

[SamFamAustin]

Papa's got a point that that much fuel would create a river of fuel and whether somebody saw that or not is beyond my acumen. The density of diesel is aboit 7.05-7.20 pounds (US) per gallon and if the bung-hole was sprung it would be like a horizontal geyser. Sounds like something more middling to me but that's some more cyber-conjecture.

Willy, they do have vacuum pumps on trucks, boats, and barges that can suck up the diesel or any other contaminant - I doubt they have many in the Bahamas, though. It is not common to allow that much petroleum product to simply sink into the dirt or runoff somewhere. If you do that intentionally it it usually considered illegal as heck.

VisitorTime, I know what you're doing and feel the same sense as you. Yet at the same time I'd like to help by saying you have no proof about 8,000 gallons of some kind of distillate fuel leaking as a matter of evidence and fact - only presumption and conjecture. That doesn't help your case at all and could detract from it. If more than 50 or 100 gallons of fuel leaked out, you have a case for standing. If you claim the whole tank of 8,000 gallons and it is in fact something far less, you could lose that battle real fast in a debate. Pick your fights not on quantity but quality and stay with the high road, my friend.
/sammie

[papanasty]

in your post you state that quote if the accused was brought in front of a judge he or she would be fined the maximum.It should say if the accused was brought in front of a judge and found Guilty beyound the perponderance of the evidence he or she would be fined accordingly to the facts of the evidence. I believe if properly represented with expert witnesses in this case the accused would walk,because the evidence does not support the accusations.:rolleyes:

[visitortime]

The tank has a capacity for 8,0000 gallons. The "owners" would not allow investigation. Therefore they have placed themselves in a position in which it must be assumed for safety that the entire amount was spilled. DOES ANYBODY GET THAT????????????????????????????????????????????

As far as fines etc that was based on if it happened in the US.
There are no environmental laws in the Bahamas. Period.

Willy , you can call me a fool all you want...if it makes you feel better. That may say more about you than me.

Gee, how could we be sure of the amount spilled...Hmmmmm...let's see...unless you are Karnac the magnificent I would say that somebody needed to check it out.
They tried. DLC blocked their access.The government did not respond.
Seems to me that the govt. is the fool, the developer is the offender, and the big question still remains: what exactly was going on between the govt and DLC that no investigation was done and DLC blocked access for investigation???
You, Willy, may spend all day and all night arguing about amounts . If that is more important to you than the fact that they did it,lied about it , and prevented an investigation ..then have fun. I corrected my previous term/post to include the word "possibility". If that is not enough for you than TOO BAD. And take a minute or two today and call around to first responders. they will tell you that when finding an empty container and no verification or independent witness to the spill they would have to assume the container WAS FULL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DISCOVERY LAND CO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT ASSUMPTION BY THEIR ACTIONS!

Why block access?
Where was the government?
How many more containers were there?
Why dump it straight into the ground?
Who's was it?
Was it old or new?
What do people do with old fuel in the Bahamas?
If this occured elsewhere or in US what would the consequences be?
Where the heck were any of you people three years ago when it happened??????

[visitortime]

..at least Papanasty converses with others..and backs up his points and explains his position. Have a good day all of you. Double shift today.
And in case anyone was getting bored hang on...I found the pictures of the leaking fuel container that Jersey Devil was referring to...or as Willy so kindly put it "Barney Fife" was referring to. I will post them later...off to work I go. Thanks Papa...it is always enjoyable. Thanks Sam and Dr Ralph.

[papanasty]

Please Keep Your Statements Straight It Was I Who Referred Our Expert Responder To Barney Fife,just Trying To Keep A Little Humor In All Of This Thanks Papa:)

[visitortime]

let's be very clear here...I realize the Barney comment was directed to me. Also the words "irresposible,reckless, and irresponsible".
And I have an attitude? Oh well, here's the good thing; anybody who had never heard about this incident before and reads this board now gets to see what DLC did. As many of you have said...it is one of many examples of poor environmental practices by DLC.:)

[jersey devil]

Visitor Time is absolutely correct. This may not make Willy or others happy but the approach that visitor time cites is the exact approach mandated. Most of the time these circumstances would not exist where access was denied. In the US there would be serious legal consequences for simply blocking access. The spill would be assessed as the full amount. DLC leaves no other choice.

[visitortime]

just noticed your post Papa on my way out the door. So Willy, I APOLOGIZE for saying it was you who said Barney Fife.
I realize now that you only called me irresponsible,reckless, and baseless. Also snotty. I said the word irresposible twice in my prior response. That was very irresponsible of me.
Papa, thanks for your humor.

[visitortime]

We are having bad weather. My post did not show at first and I was going to repost. See ya, VT

[DrRalph]

Folks, I think we have beaten this one to a pulp, and we're getting a little testy. I'm going to close this thread and simply ask for a 48 hour moratorium on these issues. Give each other a little time to process, think, cool off. Then if someone wants to re-introduce it on Friday, we'll try again.